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  #21  
Old 09.04.2018, 23:50
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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I'm not sure it's that simple. The people who come out after the liar could still be genuine but have the guts to come out (not knowing the first one was lying) because of her. But their cases - for the reason you mentioned - will be difficult.

The story of the first one doesn't sound right. She was an adult when she introduced Cosby to her parents, right? You may not want to come forward but you definitely don't introduce your family to a rapist?! And she was not professionally dependent on him when what ever supposed to have happened has happened, right? At his place, btw.

Also they couldn't come to a verdict the first time round. So he's either innocent or there is insufficient evidence.

I would be very sad if he were guilty. I was a great fan of his, the books mainly, I think I got them all somehwere. I mean why would he need this kind of sh***, he didn't seem to be a guy who has no chance with woman.
I will wait for the court case and it's outcome until I believe anything - good or bad - but I admit, I did not like his gig someone linked further up. Even if innocent - no need to make fun of the subject.


But one thing us woman seriously need to remember - or to learn in some cases maybe - we are responsible of ourselves. We can't just follow our needs and momentary desires, then turn around later and say "I didn't really want that". Why do people expect guys to maintain more control than woman?
The story the other woman told about Aziz Ansari was a whole load of BS to me. What am I doing in a guys flat, fullfilling all kinds of needs of his if I'm not interested?!
Don't follow your libido if you're not ready to admit you got one. That goes for men and woman.

Go on, groan

I don't know why this is even a conversation. He is absolutely culpable given his past testimony and statements. Please remember that this lawsuit/trial began well before the "#metoo" movement...And by that I mean many years before! Both he and his wife are culpable in my view, So sad....
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Old 09.04.2018, 23:55
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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What am I doing in a guys flat, fullfilling all kinds of needs of his if I'm not interested?!
Don't follow your libido if you're not ready to admit you got one. That goes for men and woman.

Go on, groan
I'm not going to groan you for this, but I will say that it's possible to be in a sexual relationship and in an intimate setting, events take a turn, a suggestion is made and consent is withdrawn. If one party persists at that point, then it's rape. Consent must always be mutual.
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Old 10.04.2018, 00:05
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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I'm not going to groan you for this, but I will say that it's possible to be in a sexual relationship and in an intimate setting, events take a turn, a suggestion is made and consent is withdrawn. If one party persists at that point, then it's rape. Consent must always be mutual.
Absolutely but if the withdrawal has to be clearly expressed - like the consent was, no?
(this doesn't refer to the Cosby case as I simply don't know enough about it)
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Old 10.04.2018, 00:09
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

Throwing my five rappen into the mix:

Strength is in numbers, so women are not simply 'jumping on a bandwagon' to get some publicity and cash. At some point 'glass became too full' and things just avalanched. It became easier for the victims to come out and tell their story. And noone could any longer turn a blind eye.

We also forget that 30, 20, 10 years ago it was not really possible to get convictions, mentality of general populous has been 'she asked for it, why did she drink, why did she go to his place, she wanted to be a star, so why cry now' and so on... The society was quick to judge a woman. And in some parts of the world it still is.

Think of people who have personally wronged you to some degree, but do not get punished and still enjoy the lovely life and there is nothing you can do about it?
At least one man here will answer for all his dirty deeds - that's justice in my opinion.
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Old 10.04.2018, 00:09
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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Absolutely but if the withdrawal has to be clearly expressed - like the consent was, no?
(this doesn't refer to the Cosby case as I simply don't know enough about it)
"No" is enough.
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  #26  
Old 10.04.2018, 00:21
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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Throwing my five rappen into the mix:

Strength is in numbers, so women are not simply 'jumping on a bandwagon' to get some publicity and cash.
Truth is that some women do such. And by doing so show devastating behaviour towards the real victims who have more trouble to find their story to be believed.
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Old 10.04.2018, 11:37
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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Strength is in numbers, so women are not simply 'jumping on a bandwagon' to get some publicity and cash.
I don't think it's necessarily the case that the more claims there are, the more likely they are to be true. If a host of people came forward after a motorway pile-up to claim whiplash injury, it wouldn't necessarily mean that all of them or even any of them were telling the truth, or a host of people making food poisoning claims after being on holiday (Spain: 800 Britons made fake food poisoning claims).
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Old 10.04.2018, 14:57
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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"No" is enough.
Yep. Thats clearly expressed.
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Old 10.04.2018, 16:21
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

"Stop!" is another clear expression.

However, if someone is too drunk or too young, their consent may not be assumed by the mere absence of "no" or "stop".
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  #30  
Old 11.04.2018, 01:36
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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I would be very sad if he were guilty. I was a great fan of his, the books mainly, I think I got them all somehwere. I mean why would he need this kind of sh***, he didn't seem to be a guy who has no chance with woman.
I will wait for the court case and it's outcome until I believe anything - good or bad - but I admit, I did not like his gig someone linked further up. Even if innocent - no need to make fun of the subject.


But one thing us woman seriously need to remember - or to learn in some cases maybe - we are responsible of ourselves. We can't just follow our needs and momentary desires, then turn around later and say "I didn't really want that". Why do people expect guys to maintain more control than woman?
I would be sad too but we should get used with the idea that not all people are what they seem.

I think women are and should be responsible for themselves and definitely should avoid certain situations, yet - I also think that women have the right to say no at any time during a date. A date is not a contract. Have you never done anything imprudent, not even when you were young and naive? Like being invited to some guy's place and yet - nothing happened, because most men are decent persons after all. What if he told you "There's no going back now, you should have watched your libido before accepting my invitation"? It's very easy to judge when it didn't happen to you. These are things I don't believe many women could joke with or partake in some fraudulent scheme, as someone else implied.

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I don't think it's necessarily the case that the more claims there are, the more likely they are to be true. If a host of people came forward after a motorway pile-up to claim whiplash injury, it wouldn't necessarily mean that all of them or even any of them were telling the truth, or a host of people making food poisoning claims after being on holiday (Spain: 800 Britons made fake food poisoning claims).
So not the same things..
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Old 11.04.2018, 13:03
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

Indeed, they're not the same. With a false claim of sexual assault, especially if it's "historical", no physical evidence is needed, just a convincing story and persuasive manner with (at least in the UK) guaranteed anonymity for life and the chance at tens of thousands of pounds in compensation (e.g. calculate it here) and possibly media payouts too.

We are surviving victims of a false accuser and wrongful conviction. Our family is in trauma.
How many more?

A cursory search of UK sites turns up these, amongst others:
'Guilty until proven innocent': life after a false rape accusation
'He robbed me of three years of my life': Firefighter imprisoned after he was falsely convicted of rape calls for fantasist accuser to be prosecuted as he blames stress of ordeal for wife's death
Jemma Beale case: Mahad Cassim's reputation 'ruined'
Edinburgh woman jailed over false rape allegations
Police officer was on verge of suicide after false rape accusation as woman who accused him is jailed
Innocent teachers increasingly quitting their jobs over false accusations by pupils
'The nightmare will stay with me forever: Teacher at a £33,000-a-year school who was falsely accused of rape by a student is now unemployed and living off benefits despite being cleared by a jury in just 15 minutes
A false accusation of sexual abuse destroyed my life
Girl’s false claim led to suicide
Mother of son who hanged himself after being accused of rape commits suicide a year later
Fantasists who lied about sex abuse allowed to keep compensation (not much of a deterrent)
All current rape cases to be 'urgently' reviewed over disclosure fears (but what about those already jailed?)

The perceived wisdom seems to be that false sexual assault accusations are comparatively rare, but how is it possible to calculate them if they don't always appear in the statistics as false accusers, e.g. if false accusers are not always prosecuted and/or if those wrongly convicted are unable to prove their innocence?

Back to the Cosby trial:

New Cosby accuser: 'Do you remember me?'

"Cosby's attorney has called the spate of sexual assault accusations against the comedian "ridiculous."

Martin D. Singer said in a statement it defies common sense that "so many people would have said nothing, done nothing, and made no reports to law enforcement or asserted civil claims if they thought they had been assaulted over a span of so many years."
"

This seems to be a conundrum that affects a lot of these cases where numerous people accuse one person of historic offences (e.g. even Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris, etc.). Why would a group of different people all behave identically over the alleged perpetrator's long life and their decades of adulthood and keep quiet about crimes against their person, until they all pop up at once very late in the day, while other people have over that timespan managed to report rape/sexual assault committed by others and there have been prosecutions for it?
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Old 11.04.2018, 13:47
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

Reb77br... all your previous post does is basically say women lie about sexual assault. Why is it so damn important that you keep making the same tired (and harmful) "point" over and over? I'm not saying some people don't make damaging false accusations. I choose to believe these people are firmly in the minority.

Imagine somone you know and love had something dreadful happen to them but when they finally had the courage to speak up they were ignored/ridiculed/ disbelieved and accused of lying.
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  #33  
Old 11.04.2018, 13:59
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

I am interested in the process of scams and fraud and believe that the Jimmy Savile scandal (compensation-friendly accusations and conviction by media of a dead man, rather like Russia's posthumous prosecution and conviction of Sergei Magnitsky) opened the floodgates to a particularly pernicious kind: false historic sexual assault accusations. I think that anyone who cares about the believability of genuine victims of crime should be bothered about these cases, where frauds effectively hold a gun to the head of genuine victims: "believe me, or he/she gets it". It's not about saying "women are liars", as some of those links involve false accusations by men, though I think that women should be given the credit of being as capable of men of turning their hand to a bit of fraud.
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Old 11.04.2018, 14:04
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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Yes, it is logical that if the first person to accuse someone is lying anyone subsequently accusing them of the same thing must also be lying, in the same way as if someone writes a bad piece of homework and five other people later provide the same answers they too will have written a bad piece of homework. But if the first person is telling the truth anyone coming later with the same story could be telling the truth or not.
By your logic a person always rapes or never does.
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Old 11.04.2018, 14:10
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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By your logic a person always rapes or never does.
Well, they either do or they don't. My theory may be off mathematically, but I think it has to do with the probability of subsequent accusations being true if the first one is false. If I accuse you of burgling my home last weekend, then others come forward to say you did the same to them on other occasions, what are the chances of them being correct? (Perhaps the probability of the person concerned committing whatever act the accusation concerns would also have to be taken into account.)
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  #36  
Old 11.04.2018, 17:49
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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I am interested in the process of scams and fraud and believe that the Jimmy Savile scandal (compensation-friendly accusations and conviction by media of a dead man, rather like Russia's posthumous prosecution and conviction of Sergei Magnitsky) opened the floodgates to a particularly pernicious kind: false historic sexual assault accusations. I think that anyone who cares about the believability of genuine victims of crime should be bothered about these cases, where frauds effectively hold a gun to the head of genuine victims: "believe me, or he/she gets it". It's not about saying "women are liars", as some of those links involve false accusations by men, though I think that women should be given the credit of being as capable of men of turning their hand to a bit of fraud.
I get your point.I think you're right - some fraudsters, attention seekers or whatever their motivation could sneak in, but what do you think - is Cosby guilty at least in a few cases? Did all of these start from nothing?

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Indeed, they're not the same. With a false claim of sexual assault, especially if it's "historical", no physical evidence is needed, just a convincing story and persuasive manner with (at least in the UK) guaranteed anonymity for life and the chance at tens of thousands of pounds in compensation (e.g. calculate it here) and possibly media payouts too.

We are surviving victims of a false accuser and wrongful conviction. Our family is in trauma.
How many more?
............

............

Martin D. Singer said in a statement it defies common sense that "so many people would have said nothing, done nothing, and made no reports to law enforcement or asserted civil claims if they thought they had been assaulted over a span of so many years." [/I]"

This seems to be a conundrum that affects a lot of these cases where numerous people accuse one person of historic offences (e.g. even Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris, etc.). Why would a group of different people all behave identically over the alleged perpetrator's long life and their decades of adulthood and keep quiet about crimes against their person, until they all pop up at once very late in the day, while other people have over that timespan managed to report rape/sexual assault committed by others and there have been prosecutions for it?
Given his position of power over his alleged victims? I don't think it's very difficult to imagine why they kept quiet. Think of Catholic Church scandals. But honestly, I really should know more about his accusers, context etc. It's a pity the justice system seems unable to deal properly with stuff like this.

Last edited by greenmount; 11.04.2018 at 18:05.
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  #37  
Old 11.04.2018, 18:32
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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I get your point.I think you're right - some fraudsters, attention seekers or whatever their motivation could sneak in, but what do you think - is Cosby guilty at least in a few cases? Did all of these start from nothing?
As far as I understand it, Andrea Constand was the first to make an accusation a year after the alleged event, brought a civil case and received an out-of-court settlement, this being publicised at the time, then others followed. If she wasn't telling the truth, i.e. was exaggerating a consensual encounter into a crime for profit, then, IMO, anyone saying "me too" late in the day is more likely to be another opportunist rather than a victim of crime. But if she was telling the truth, anyone coming later could, if my theory is correct, be either telling the truth or not. But I think the pattern and nature of reporting is also important. If there had been a drip-drip of prompt reports about him to police over the years and decades, that would surely tend to point to honest behaviour of crime victims desiring justice and to his guilt. The question is why a group of separate people would all behave identically in maintaining their silence for years/decades, especially if others managed during the same period to report (genuine) crimes against them by others and there were (just) prosecutions for those crimes.

More fairly recent Cosby-related news:

Ensa Cosby, daughter of Bill Cosby, dies at 44

"Ensa Cosby voiced strong support for her father after he was accused of sexual assault, saying she believed he was innocent.

Last May, Ensa and her sister Erinn released audio statements in support of their famous father.

"I believe that racism has played a big role in all aspects of this scandal," Ensa Cosby wrote.

"My father has been publicly lynched in the media," she said. "My family, my young daughter, my young niece and nephew have had to stand helplessly by and watch the double standards of pretending to protect the rights of some, but ignoring the rights of others and exposing innocent children to such appalling accusations about someone they love dearly and who has been so loving and kind to them is beyond cruel.""
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  #38  
Old 11.04.2018, 20:18
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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I would be sad too but we should get used with the idea that not all people are what they seem.

I think women are and should be responsible for themselves and definitely should avoid certain situations, yet - I also think that women have the right to say no at any time during a date. A date is not a contract. Have you never done anything imprudent, not even when you were young and naive? Like being invited to some guy's place and yet - nothing happened, because most men are decent persons after all. What if he told you "There's no going back now, you should have watched your libido before accepting my invitation"? It's very easy to judge when it didn't happen to you. These are things I don't believe many women could joke with or partake in some fraudulent scheme, as someone else implied.
That is not what I said. And the two cases that were discussed here lately (Aziz Ansari and Cosby .... I didn't follow the Weinstein thread) were not forceful rapes - at least I don't know about that. The accuser of Ansari did not go home, apparently this went on and on ... I say "no and good night" but hey, that's me.

You know nothing about me or what happened to me. So do not assume.

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Indeed, they're not the same. With a false claim of sexual assault, especially if it's "historical", no physical evidence is needed, just a convincing story and persuasive manner with (at least in the UK) guaranteed anonymity for life and the chance at tens of thousands of pounds in compensation (e.g. calculate it here) and possibly media payouts too.
£ 6600.00. Really. Aha.

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Reb77br... all your previous post does is basically say women lie about sexual assault. Why is it so damn important that you keep making the same tired (and harmful) "point" over and over? I'm not saying some people don't make damaging false accusations. I choose to believe these people are firmly in the minority.

Imagine somone you know and love had something dreadful happen to them but when they finally had the courage to speak up they were ignored/ridiculed/ disbelieved and accused of lying.
I'm glad he does (is he a he?).

Because this is a serious offence it should not be allowed to be accused of easily. In fact, false accusers should be punished for doing so.

He is absolutely not 'basically saying woman lie about sexual assaults'. I didn't see that anywhere.
And because now - like a wave - the world as we knew it is supposed to be full of rapist and molesters it is 'so damn important to make the same point over and over'. Tiring? Hmm, one could say the same thing about these masses of women - which I don't say.

I got the impression Reb77 - like me - would like to have a court-result before making up his mind about people he does not know.
Let them all be taken to court. Absolutely! Have them locked up and throw away the key - by the judge. And do the same with false accusers. Because just like sexual assault is life-changing, being accused falsely of it is too.
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Old 11.04.2018, 20:34
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

Have just been reading this and wonder if, after all, the first accuser is telling the truth.

THE ONE ACCUSER WHO MAY FINALLY BRING BILL COSBY DOWN FOR GOOD

"She had no romantic interest in the television star, 36 years her senior, and she has said she twice rebuffed what she called his embarrassing sexual advances, once when he unbuttoned her pants and began touching her. Still, she trusted him, so when he called in January 2004, offering to discuss her life and career and telling her that they would be alone and to “dress in comfortable clothing,” she accepted."

That combined with then accepting pills from him and mixing them with wine seems extraordinarily naive behaviour for an adult, but if she's gay, perhaps that explains an inability to interpret male behaviour and/or exert due caution.
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Old 11.04.2018, 22:49
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Re: 35 Victims of Bill Cosby

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Have just been reading this and wonder if, after all, the first accuser is telling the truth.

THE ONE ACCUSER WHO MAY FINALLY BRING BILL COSBY DOWN FOR GOOD

"She had no romantic interest in the television star, 36 years her senior, and she has said she twice rebuffed what she called his embarrassing sexual advances, once when he unbuttoned her pants and began touching her. Still, she trusted him, so when he called in January 2004, offering to discuss her life and career and telling her that they would be alone and to “dress in comfortable clothing,” she accepted."

That combined with then accepting pills from him and mixing them with wine seems extraordinarily naive behaviour for an adult, but if she's gay, perhaps that explains an inability to interpret male behaviour and/or exert due caution.
I forced myself to read the article all the way to the last letter. Feeling sicker by the minute.
According to it, he admitted most of the accusations. Why is he still a free man? Drugging in itself is a crime. Well, it would be here.

No, one can't call these woman naive. It was a completely different time (not today when these "K.O.-Pillen" are known to the general public).

I won't state any opinions on the Cosby-case anymore for now. All I can say is that the court-case should come up quickly now. And that in my opinion it should not be possible to settle such cases in private but be a criminal offence liable to public prosecution. Always. Because one victim is enough.
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