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  #21  
Old 27.07.2020, 10:01
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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in the "beautiful" and multipolar 70s:
- Apartheid was raging
- Half of the planet was under communism
- In the US the civil rights movement was futile and had to give birth to the Black Power movement
- Certain cantons in Switzerland hadn't yet given voting rights to women
- I wasn't born yet

The list goes on, so "beautiful" is relative: if you were a black woman in SA or a white working class guy in Ural, maybe not so much.
You forgot about disco
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Old 27.07.2020, 10:08
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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The list goes on, so "beautiful" is relative: if you were a black woman in SA or a white working class guy in Ural, maybe not so much.
True. From the top of my head, in the 70s there was the Argentinean dictatorship that kidnapped and killed 20'000 people, the KR massacred over 1.5 million Muslims in the Philippines, about a dozen Civil Wars (with casualties of more than 100K people each) in South America, Asia and Africa, and in the "wonderful" 90s there was the Srebrenica massacre in Bosnia.

There seem to be several studies that explain why "Things were always better in the good old days". Haven't read them yet, but there seems to be some interesting psychological effect.
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Old 27.07.2020, 10:09
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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You forgot about disco
He mentioned bad things, not truly terrible things.
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  #24  
Old 27.07.2020, 10:22
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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There seem to be several studies that explain why "Things were always better in the good old days". Haven't read them yet, but there seems to be some interesting psychological effect.
Don't bother with the newer ones, the older ones are always better.

In truth I think social media plays a big role, where normally the village idiot or village loudmouth only belonged to the village and was known for a few miles around, now they get to shout loud enough for the world to hear them.
What has been beneficial for people with off beat hobbies to meet their community online, has also allowed people of certain political views to only talk to those with the same worldview. Both sides have their echo chambers.
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Old 27.07.2020, 10:31
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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There seem to be several studies that explain why "Things were always better in the good old days".
Back in the old days we were young, beautiful and free. Now we're old and grumpy EFers
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  #26  
Old 27.07.2020, 11:53
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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I just never believed in the mainstream, because it was created through manipulation for the certain needs of our leaders...I see in many of my posts people don't get what I mean because I am not so "eloquent" as others on this forum...I don't have an oratory talent, can't express myself in the words that will make you think differently...but that doesn't stop me to read Schopenhauer, Hegel, Nietzsche, Marx, and not the last the greatest psychologist Freud... nowadays Carnegie is used as a bible creating maneaters(figurative)...
Are you just using a random sentence generator, or are you actually a robot?

I mean, it's clear that English isn't your native language, but in most such cases there's at least a semblance of meaning behind their posts, whereas yours says absolutely nothing. If people don't get what you mean it's because you don't appear to mean anything at all.

That last bit in particular, highlighted in red, is a masterpiece. Anyone got any idea what language it might have been translated from where it could have made some sense?
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  #27  
Old 27.07.2020, 13:18
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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I always seem to find, that people struggle with non-absolutes. Whether its understanding percentages, risks, probabilities, good, evil.

The last two are big ones. I feel many people now a days feel lost and insignificant as an individual. One of the easiest ways to feel self worth is to identify others as bad or wrong or evil. (With the intent that the self is thus good and right).

However, if the bad guy is not absolutely polarized as BAD, then the self cannot be absolutely polarized as GOOD, and the attempt to feel self worth is lost.

Maybe also why super hero movies have become increasingly popular. A simple entertaining example where the absolute good triumphs over absolute evil.
Superheros haven't just become increasingly popular. People have always had an inventory of gods and icons, manuals for goodness and common good, etc...the clearer the manual, the easier the opposition and negation, too.

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Of course, there's a lot to disagree, particularly when it comes to cosmology, awareness, and the fundamental question of "what reality really is".

On the other hand, from "disagreeing with Hegel" to saying that "vaccines are bad because it's actually an excuse for governments to put microchips in you to read what you eat, for marketing purposes"...sorry, I draw the line at "reasonable" quite a few meters away from it (read reasonable/rational/vernünftig).
So you do. He does not.

This is not about reality or common good. But one's definition of freedom of choice that potentially endangers or compromises others. And to define that, legally - is pita. Waxing about ideas on EF isn't dangerous, it is stimulating and legal. I know it is hard to see it when people get angry at opponents (or pseudo-angry) or ridiculous ideas and they identify with other thoughts so much that they cannot imagine that there is something else. Hegel was a bit...unimaginative, I think. But disciplined and positivist.

I was thinking earlier, in general - this isn't about conspiracies (since there always will be ideas, who are you or me to say why or if brainstorming is harmless), but about the ability to question. Nobody can order you on EF to nix vaccinating yourself. To argue, potentially, "but what about the poor readers and lurkers of our fabulous site, they might get confused by the fact there is one member who has some attitude towards vax", well...one could silent all possible thoughts then. This is a debate board, not an official health authority board, readership know this.
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  #28  
Old 27.07.2020, 13:40
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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Anyone got any idea what language it might have been translated from where it could have made some sense?
I can try to help you out, let's see if I understood it right, Flying K. lemi know.

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..nowadays Carnegie is used as a bible creating maneaters(figurative)...
Hmmm. I think this is soaked in sarcasm. Freud did a lot of work on psychoanalysis, i.e. how to grow up. Carnegie just helped anyone to be liked (which is childish, seeking validation) as that was the only work to do in learning about oneself. As if opposing was a crime and individuals with critical thinking faithful to themselves were a priori bad. To follow Carnegie means to be smooth and liked by everyone so much it gives an individual a ton of power to actually destroy others. Carnegie is a bible that can promote commercialism, people who gain affection gain power, are intolerant of others and hurt them.

This is totally my interpretation of Flying's lil rant there. Not what I actually think about the issue.
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Last edited by MusicChick; 27.07.2020 at 22:58.
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  #29  
Old 27.07.2020, 13:41
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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That last bit in particular, highlighted in red, is a masterpiece. Anyone got any idea what language it might have been translated from where it could have made some sense?
My vague interpretation is that Carnegie, a supposedly positive and non-controversial figure in his day and time is now being portrayed as a biblical-scale plague, a man-eating beast and thus, is a negative figure today. In other words, the past was better

Please don't ask he why he chose Carnegie to prove any point
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  #30  
Old 27.07.2020, 13:50
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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My vague interpretation is that Carnegie, a supposedly positive and non-controversial figure in his day and time is now being portrayed as a biblical-scale plague, a man-eating beast and thus, is a negative figure today. In other words, the past was better

Please don't ask he why he chose Carnegie to prove any point
I perso do not think Carnegie is viewed as negative, Flying saw him as that, perhaps, or society as hypocritical (worshiping a manual on agreeableness while having no feeling for anyone). I do think that those who are so liked and popular can hide bad intentions easily. Controversial outspoken figure doesn't mind being disliked.

Last edited by MusicChick; 27.07.2020 at 14:34.
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  #31  
Old 27.07.2020, 13:50
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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Hmmm. I think this is soaked in sarcasm. Freud did a lot of work on psychoanalysis, i.e. how to grow up. Carnegie just helped anyone to be liked (which is childish, seeking validation) as that was the only work to do in learning about oneself. As if opposing was a crime and individuals with critical thinking faithful to themselves were a priori bad. To follow Carnegie means to be smooth and liked by everyone so much it gives an individual power to actually destroy others. Carnegie is a bible that can promote commercialism, people who gain affection gain power, are intolerant of others and hurt them.
Mebbe you share a way of linguistic thinking with FK, but I'm afraid your interpretation makes little more sense to me than the original, apart from highlighting who and what s/he was talking about. Sometimes us Anglo-Saxons like to think literally and are perhaps (I speak for myself) unable to accept such constructions as "Carnegie is used as a bible creating maneaters". I read it as bible-creating, since grammatically, without punctuation, that's how it would work, even if not logically.

I suppose that if we expand that to "Carnegie's ideas are used as if they were a bible, to create maneaters" it might make some sense - is that what you think was being implied?

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My vague interpretation is that Carnegie, a supposedly positive and non-controversial figure in his day and time is now being portrayed as a biblical-scale plague, a man-eating beast and thus, is a negative figure today. In other words, the past was better

Please don't ask he why he chose Carnegie to prove any point
Thanks. I think.
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  #32  
Old 27.07.2020, 13:51
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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I perso do not think Carnegie is viewed as negative, Flying saw him as that, perhaps. I do think that those who are so liked and popular can hide bad intentions easily. Controversial outspoken figure doesn't mind being disliked.
Oh, i am not the one making the statement, i am merely trying to interpret what was said! Please judge the quality of my translation, not the quality of the statement itself
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  #33  
Old 27.07.2020, 13:52
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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Oh, i am not the one making the statement, i am merely trying to interpret what was said! Please judge the quality of my translation, not the quality of the statement itself
I did.
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  #34  
Old 27.07.2020, 14:02
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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in the "beautiful" and multipolar 70s:
- Apartheid was raging
- Half of the planet was under communism
- In the US the civil rights movement was futile and had to give birth to the Black Power movement
- Certain cantons in Switzerland hadn't yet given voting rights to women
- I wasn't born yet

The list goes on, so "beautiful" is relative: if you were a black woman in SA or a white working class guy in Ural, maybe not so much.
Not to mention some of the most depressing and uninspiring art and designwork of human history, including the most awful automobiles and most ugly architecture.

These things have fortunately got a little better since then. Only the music has got worse.
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Old 27.07.2020, 14:04
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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Sometimes us Anglo-Saxons like to think literally and are perhaps (I speak for myself) unable to accept such constructions as "Carnegie is a bible"..
It doesn't seem to me that Flying is asking anyone to accept anything. Anglosaxon or not. You can agree or disagree. "Carnegie is a bible" is a personal opinion. I think I see where's Flying's criticism coming from. My opinion of the issue is irrelevant. I liked the fact that Carnegie came up with his stuff a long ago and it still sells. Kinda bible. Maybe too agreeable, maybe too strategic but good manners, none the less. I haven't seen Flying to be rude in his posts, either.
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  #36  
Old 27.07.2020, 14:10
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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These things have fortunately got a little better since then. Only the music has got worse.
I used to think that too, but since i spent some time fine-tuning and teaching the Spotify AI what i like/dislike it has been an absolute revelation! There's tons, tons of great work out there, it's a pity that most if it simply doesn't get much exposure outside of streaming and is probably considered "indie", "alternative", but it's there. I understand this is probably style-dependent, but give it a try. You might get surprised.
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  #37  
Old 27.07.2020, 14:14
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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I used to think that too, but since i spent some time fine-tuning and teaching the Spotify AI what i like/dislike it has been an absolute revelation! There's tons, tons of great work out there, it's a pity that most if it simply doesn't get much exposure outside of streaming and is probably considered "indie", "alternative", but it's there. I understand this is probably style-dependent, but give it a try. You might get surprised.
This.

It is like saying that modern cars are ugly because Trabant is.

Modern cars are beautiful because Tesla is.
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  #38  
Old 27.07.2020, 14:22
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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Opinion or not, it's not possible for a person to be a bible, therefore the sentence makes no sense. Think literally. That's how English works.

I do wonder if your shared (with the OP) linguistic roots (if you'll forgive my lumping together of Russian with Czech) which seem to allow you to interpret this in a way that I can not, might also explain why sometime people fail to properly understand your own postings.
No. It is just this: "Have you read Shakespeare?" It is a trope. Whether Flying cares for being understood by you is another thing I like his shorthand, it is more fun than sudoku. Guess a different topic than vax would be more pleasant...but maybe that would be too Carnegie for him.
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Old 27.07.2020, 14:42
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

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This.

It is like saying that modern cars are ugly because Trabant is.

Modern cars are beautiful because Tesla is.
I don't think a Trabant is modern by any stretch of the definition, and it wasn't even modern when it first came out.

And I don't think a Tesla is beautiful. Stunning maybe, inspiring, a statement, but not beautiful.

There was a mantra among designers that form must serve function rather than vice versa, and although this is a sound idea in theory and if properly thought through, in practice it led to cost cutting, tackiness, enforced uniformity, and became an excuse for ugliness, not just in cars and kitchen appliances, but affecting many areas of life in general, including politics, philosophy, education and many other aspects of society.

Maybe the recent backlash is in part a cry or plea to roll some of that back, and recover some of the good that had been thrown out with the bad.
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Old 27.07.2020, 14:53
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Re: Polarised society:Why?

Form that serves function can still be aesthetically top. To some people. Like.....Tesla! Aesthetics are subjective.

I put Trabant there exactly for the preposterity, it was always ugly and old even when new since it is a paper car and gets eaten by rats. Yet there still are so many Trabant lovers. It is cute, it woke the entire street with 2-tact (I don't know if it is the word in EN). I think nostalgia will beautify ton of useless experiences and things. To have a cheap paper car and to know how to fix (well..) is kinda beautiful.
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Last edited by MusicChick; 28.07.2020 at 06:36.
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