English Forum Switzerland

English Forum Switzerland (https://www.englishforum.ch/forum.php)
-   General off-topic (https://www.englishforum.ch/general-off-topic/)
-   -   Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split) (https://www.englishforum.ch/general-off-topic/302195-consciousness-metaphysics-extentialism-science-thread-split.html)

Flying Kite 15.01.2021 23:29

Re: Ask a Scientist
 
…imagine the particle is so tiny then hardware and software are the same...

amogles 16.01.2021 01:08

Re: Ask a Scientist
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankZappa (Post 3263810)
The mantra is: "Cells that fire together wire together". Say we smell strawberry and see red fruit at the same time, the connection between the two sets of neurons detecting these separate signals will be strengthened, so that we learn to associate the two signals. We look for red fruit when we smell strawberry aroma and vice versa.

But that doesn't yet explain consciousness, or even begin to explain it.

It just explains mechanized learning.

amogles 16.01.2021 01:30

Re: Ask a Scientist
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 3263462)
If the number of neurons signals certain degree of consciousness doesn't it mean certain degree of faith? It has to. I think Flying's point was a scale, so was the dude's he quoted. How can one agree with a scale with neurons (so a relative pov) but an absoluteness of faith, when one needs neurons to be consciouss of one's faith.

You need a large number of neurons to be aware that you have neurons.
You also need a large number of neurons to be aware of faith.
You also need a large number of neurons to understand poetry.
Or to understand what's so cool about an electric guitar.

Not all forms of consciousness are the same.

You can probably teach a computer, attached to a robot, to play the electric guitar. Maybe one day, a computer will be able to analyze what makes good music and then even compose good music by itself. But I doubt that any sufficiently complex computer will ever actually appreciate good music.

See the Turing test. Being able to say and do smart things is in itself no proof of even elementary consciousness.

FrankZappa 16.01.2021 10:08

Re: Ask a Scientist
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3263886)
You need a large number of neurons to be aware that you have neurons.
You also need a large number of neurons to be aware of faith.
You also need a large number of neurons to understand poetry.
Or to understand what's so cool about an electric guitar.

Not all forms of consciousness are the same.

You can probably teach a computer, attached to a robot, to play the electric guitar. Maybe one day, a computer will be able to analyze what makes good music and then even compose good music by itself. But I doubt that any sufficiently complex computer will ever actually appreciate good music.

See the Turing test. Being able to say and do smart things is in itself no proof of even elementary consciousness.

Well, I don't understand poetry. What does "understand" mean in that sentence? And "Why an electric guitar is cool" seems a very strange task to set a human brain, never mind a computer.



The definition of conciousness is a good starting place. It can mean many different things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

My feeling about most of this discussion is: "I want some of whatever they are smoking", but hey, there's a pandemic on, so there's not much else to do.

amogles 16.01.2021 10:46

Re: Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split)
 
Now that somebody has gone in and rearranged these posts into a new thread, could anybody explain why or how the word metaphysics slipped into the title , as I see no attempt here to discuss metaphysics.

FrankZappa 16.01.2021 10:50

Re: Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3263919)
Now that somebody has gone in and rearranged these posts into a new thread, could anybody explain why or how the word metaphysics slipped into the title , as I see no attempt here to discuss metaphysics.

First sentence from Wikipedia: "Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, between substance and attribute, and between potentiality and actuality."

Seems fair enough to me. Your post on neurons and poetry seems spot on: mind and matter.

MusicChick 16.01.2021 10:53

Re: Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split)
 
Looks like somebody considers Ask a Scientist to be purely stem?

Consciousness is a nice cross-over. The STEM/HUM separation stopped decades ago.

greenmount 16.01.2021 11:05

Re: Ask a Scientist
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Axa (Post 3262610)
I can help with commentary on healing with crystals. Don't know anything about it, but no prob, no one does :D

Is this new thread about "healing" crystals? :msnsarcastic: :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 3263921)
Looks like somebody considers Ask a Scientist to be purely stem?

Consciousness is a nice cross-over. The STEM/HUM separation stopped decades ago.

I take it some members of the forum threatened with leaving it if non-science stuff continues to be mixed up with philosophical questions...funny.

amogles 16.01.2021 11:19

Re: Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankZappa (Post 3263920)
First sentence from Wikipedia: "Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, between substance and attribute, and between potentiality and actuality."

Seems fair enough to me. Your post on neurons and poetry seems spot on: mind and matter.

Have you read the rest of the article too?

I've yet to hear of anybody in metaphysics discuss that sort of stuff. Sounds like the wrong department to me.

Ace1 16.01.2021 11:21

Re: Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split)
 
I'm not so much bothered whether some people might think these things are science or not, but the potential usefulness of the Ask a Scientist thread was being severely diluted by this tangential discussion.

If metaphysics doesn't belong in the title I apologise, but I only know some stuff about real science...

<d,h,rfc>

MusicChick 16.01.2021 11:24

Re: Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split)
 
Transdisciplinarity. Interdisciplinarity.The understanding might be generational.

Massacrophysics is a thing! A new thread!

amogles 16.01.2021 11:51

Re: Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1 (Post 3263932)
I'm not so much bothered whether some people might think these things are science or not, but the potential usefulness of the Ask a Scientist thread was being severely diluted by this tangential discussion.

If metaphysics doesn't belong in the title I apologise, but I only know some stuff about real science...

<d,h,rfc>

Just wondering.

I only have a PhD from the ETH, but that was a long time ago and there was only science in those days, no "real science". So I'm unfamiliar with the principles of "real science".

So please enlighten us. Am I correct in assuming that the difference between scientists and "real scientists" is that "real scientists" consider that their own ignorance of a topic, or ignorance of the meaning of a word, is a good enough reason to use it inappropriately and to refuse to be corrected?

MusicChick 16.01.2021 12:18

Re: Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3263952)
Just wondering.

I only have a PhD from the ETH, but that was a long time ago and there was only science in those days, no "real science". So I'm unfamiliar with the principles of "real science".

So please enlighten us.

Syntax?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/40/68...bb82def2bf.jpg

amogles 16.01.2021 12:29

Re: Ask a Scientist
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying Kite (Post 3263883)
…imagine the particle is so tiny then hardware and software are the same...

Can God makes the partikels so smalls that God cannot knows if the partikels is hardwares or zoftwares?

I thinks the answers is both yes and no because it is like the cats Schrödinger.

MusicChick 16.01.2021 12:52

Re: Ask a Scientist
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3263975)
Can God makes the partikels so smalls that God cannot knows if the partikels is hardwares or zoftwares?

I thinks the answers is both yes and no because it is like the cats Schrödinger.

I sense high level of scientitude. I measured 5 partikels. I can squeeze 5 more tomorrow, when I am free to repz.

amogles 16.01.2021 14:23

Re: Ask a Scientist
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 3263981)
I sense high level of scientitude. I measured 5 partikels. I can squeeze 5 more tomorrow, when I am free to repz.

i am today buyink the big bag of braun zugar. I am findinks lots of very small partikels therein. This is the real zience. You like?

MusicChick 16.01.2021 14:35

Re: Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split)
 
Hahahaha...Da! I am quite particul about my sugars.

That reminded me a terrible joke. I think I have to pm it.

amogles 16.01.2021 14:44

Re: Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 3264016)
Hahahaha...Da! I am quite particul about my sugars.

That reminded me a terrible joke. I think I have to pm it.

terrible joke indeed

greenmount 16.01.2021 15:42

Re: Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace1 (Post 3263932)
I'm not so much bothered whether some people might think these things are science or not, but the potential usefulness of the Ask a Scientist thread was being severely diluted by this tangential discussion.

If metaphysics doesn't belong in the title I apologise, but I only know some stuff about real science...

<d,h,rfc>

Does "extentialism" belong in the title? :)

Not that would make much of a difference, but you may want to fix it...? I don't know. :p

Talk to you later 16.01.2021 16:36

Re: Consciousness, metaphysics, extentialism... (Science thread split)
 
Life confuses me. I mean REALLY CONFUSES me! I always feel like I am inside a virtual game.
I find actions of 99.82% of fellow humans weird :o


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:36.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0