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  #201  
Old 25.08.2009, 23:07
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Re: Religious Musings

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" Believers, the pagans are filthy. Do not let them come near to the Sacred Mosque after this year. "
Another transl.:
" O you who believe (in Allah's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year, "

I wonder if because of this verse, non-muslims (christians,jews,...) are not allowed to be around Mecca mosque. Good to know Who exactly meant to be filthy?
Well I don't know about mecca, but non believers are welcome around mosques, I've visited a couple, you're merely asked to be respectful, in manner and dress, and to remove your shoes.

I remember reading about a sect of muslims who are very private about their religion, and refuse to tell anyone they are muslim, but I've forgotten the term, and have probably expressed it incorrectly, can anyone enlighten me?
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  #202  
Old 26.08.2009, 05:31
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Re: Religious Musings

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King James Version? The English sometimes have a dry sense of humour. How can they think they can get away with a fabrication?

There are about 5,000 original Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, and about 10,000 in Latin, another 9,000 in other versions. Silly sods. Don't they know we can look at the originals? You can even get to the original greek text from many places over the Internet these days:
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek...nt/default.asp
How can you have an original of Bible in Greek, Latin and other languages when as far as i understand Jesus used to speak Hebrew and all the sayings of Jesus was in Hebrew. That's not original in any way.

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Now about the Qur'an.... would you get offended if I told you that there are also doubts and inconsistencies with the way it was put together? If I told you, you wouldn't try to get a fatwa hit out on me, would you?
There is no doubt whatsoever in the compilation of Quran. It came in Arabic dialect of the meccans and it remained that way till date. Moreover it was always in the minds of the people who followed Muhammad (pbuh) because they all used to memorise it and revise it from time to time. We can reproduce a copy of quran even if there is not a single manuscript available. It's in the hearts and minds of Muslims, we can create a compilation in perfect order whenever we want. The verses were revealed according to the situation and later compiled in the form of book by the same man who was the personal script of the prophet.

The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 15, Verse 9
"We have without doubt, send down the message; and We will assuredly guard it(from corruption)."
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  #203  
Old 26.08.2009, 05:46
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Re: Religious Musings

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" Believers, the pagans are filthy. Do not let them come near to the Sacred Mosque after this year. "
Another transl.:
" O you who believe (in Allah's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year, "

I wonder if because of this verse, non-muslims (christians,jews,...) are not allowed to be around Mecca mosque. Good to know Who exactly meant to be filthy?
Well yes on paper non-muslims are not allowed to go to Mecca and medina. These are the protected sanctuary for the muslims. Even muslims are prohibited to do some acts there which they can do everywhere else like plucking trees, hunting etc. There are some rules which every muslim has to follow.

Understand in this way like in every country there are rules to allow somebody in ex. passport, visa etc. Muslims have some rules for these cities as well. The only requirement to go there is proclamation of Shahadah (i.e there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger). So anybody can be there just by saying these words, he might not mean it. I think many might have been there already because it so easy to be there.
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  #204  
Old 26.08.2009, 06:45
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Re: Religious Musings

I try to take the best from every religion or what I consider to be the best.

There is fasting in most religions. As far as I understand you are supposed to cut down on eating and what you cut you must give in equal value to the poor. So that is what I am doing, I also give something up for Lent. I try to make contact with lost relatives. The hardest thing for me is not to gossip, I am trying but it is really difficult.

I think that there is a lot of good in the Moslem religion, Zakat is taken seriously, your prayers will not be heard without compliance. It is pretty hefty if you want to do it right (1/40 ofyour wealth and anything from 5%-10% of your income)

I have alread started losing weight and donated money, so I'm happy.
I started one day late though, so I have to tack that on the end. I don't usually last the month, even though I drink tea.
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  #205  
Old 26.08.2009, 08:29
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Re: Religious Musings

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How can you have an original of Bible in Greek, Latin and other languages when as far as i understand Jesus used to speak Hebrew and all the sayings of Jesus was in Hebrew. That's not original in any way.
Because after Alexander the Great swept through most of the world, the de facto language for writing was Greek. Furthermore, a lot of the early churches were based in and around the area of Greece.
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  #206  
Old 26.08.2009, 08:35
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Re: Religious Musings

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Yes "Injil" does not exist now.
The legend of the lost "Injil" doesn't seem like at act of an all-powerful divine God. If it were the will of God to provide this "Injil" to humans, we would have it until this day.

We believe in an all-powerful divine God whose determined will IS done. This includes providing just what we need. Even the scripture we read is provided through divine providence.

We don't believe our God can fail. If we do in fact talk of the same God, how then can God provide something, yet fail to really see it through that we get it?
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  #207  
Old 26.08.2009, 08:50
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Re: Religious Musings

Actually Parsis are quite a unique ethnic group. They are originally from Iran, yet are not Iranis/Persians. They call themselves Parsis. They do not speak their original language, which is Persian. Rather they speak Gujarati.

They worship Fire, which is considered to be of the highest importance.

By all means and measures, they are Indian, however, their numbers are so small, that they are not taken to be of statistical significance in the overall split of the Indian population by communities and groups.

Their holy book (akin to the Bhagvad Gita for Hindus or Quran for Muslims or Bible for Christians) is the Zend Avesta.


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There are quite a few in Pakistan too.. Mama Parsi school in Karachi is known for its high standards... along with St Josephs School and College

That is tre.. never heard a Parsi referring to him/herself as Parsi or anybody... always call themselves Gujrati... which confuses them with Agha Khanis/Ismailis... no?
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  #208  
Old 26.08.2009, 09:26
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Re: Religious Musings

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So these seem to me to speak of a particular time and place in the history of Islam.
And this is very crucial point.
Main source of religious extremisim comes form the fact that they try to apply those harsh acts and verses which has been told or done for a certain time and location. They claim that religion is for all time and everywhere, and wanna apply the rules to anywhere and anytime, no matter of all the differences of era, ....
Some more peacefull religious, try to cherry pick, and talk only about ethich and nicer verses of it, which of cource it is better than first group, but this causues clashes between these 2 (We see this in several Middle Eastern countries)
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  #209  
Old 26.08.2009, 09:44
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Re: Religious Musings

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" Believers, the pagans are filthy. Do not let them come near to the Sacred Mosque after this year. "
Another transl.:
" O you who believe (in Allah's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) after this year, "

I wonder if because of this verse, non-muslims (christians,jews,...) are not allowed to be around Mecca mosque. Good to know Who exactly meant to be filthy?
Another translation is, By Yusuf Ali, whom I would recommend as being English Civil servant and Muslim, he had better understanding of Arabic and English languages as well as cultures and history.

O you who believe! truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if you fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of his bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Background to this is, its froom Chapter Al-Tawbah (Repentence), the only chapter which does not begin with blessing "In the name of One God, the Most Merciful and Benevolent"... reason being the tone of this chapter is very Stern and urges muslims to stand up against the Persecutions they were facing in their homeland.

Unclean literally means unclean as Ka'aba or the Sacred Mosque used to be sacred for ALL religions in those days and everyone would gather atleast once a year to offer their pilgrimage... some of the pagan tribes would come to offer their pilgrimage.. semi naked, drunk and literally filthy (unclean) and also perform their strange rituals in the compound.

Muslims did not stand to it for 2 reasons 1) source of revenue 2)can lead to conflict as it often had regarding being the Custodian of the Sacred House.

In here Muslims of those days were urged to clean it out and get it organised.

Everybody is (should be) welcome as long as they obey the House Rules. How can you expect to PReach yoru religion if you are not gonna let them in your places of Worship?
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  #210  
Old 26.08.2009, 09:49
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Re: Religious Musings

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Well I don't know about mecca, but non believers are welcome around mosques, I've visited a couple, you're merely asked to be respectful, in manner and dress, and to remove your shoes.

I remember reading about a sect of muslims who are very private about their religion, and refuse to tell anyone they are muslim, but I've forgotten the term, and have probably expressed it incorrectly, can anyone enlighten me?
Possibly Ismaili's or Ahmedi's?

Any clues as to what country they predominantly belong to?
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  #211  
Old 26.08.2009, 09:52
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Re: Religious Musings

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And this is very crucial point.
Main source of religious extremisim comes form the fact that they try to apply those harsh acts and verses which has been told or done for a certain time and location. They claim that religion is for all time and everywhere, and wanna apply the rules to anywhere and anytime, no matter of all the differences of era, ....
Some more peacefull religious, try to cherry pick, and talk only about ethich and nicer verses of it, which of cource it is better than first group, but this causues clashes between these 2 (We see this in several Middle Eastern countries)
Actually we see it all around the world and all through history... using God and Religion as justification to wage Wars for Money and Political control..

Can quote 2:

"God told me to do so"

"Kill them all and let God sort them out"
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  #212  
Old 26.08.2009, 10:05
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Re: Religious Musings

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Because after Alexander the Great swept through most of the world, the de facto language for writing was Greek. Furthermore, a lot of the early churches were based in and around the area of Greece.
Even though you cannot call a Greek version as the original as any interpretation cannot equal the original in any way. What you then have is a human translated version and not the original words sent down by The Almighty. There is a huge difference between the two. These translated versions were compiled long after Jesus and so there is no verification of the verses there in. That is why there are so many conflicts within Bible itself.
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  #213  
Old 26.08.2009, 10:14
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Re: Religious Musings

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The legend of the lost "Injil" doesn't seem like at act of an all-powerful divine God. If it were the will of God to provide this "Injil" to humans, we would have it until this day.

We believe in an all-powerful divine God whose determined will IS done. This includes providing just what we need. Even the scripture we read is provided through divine providence.

We don't believe our God can fail. If we do in fact talk of the same God, how then can God provide something, yet fail to really see it through that we get it?
By your logic then why did God sent so many books down all through history of mankind? He doesn't fail, true, so even one book should have been sufficient? Why did he sent the Old testament before and then the new one later on according to many the old should not be followed any longer?
Because these books were meant for a particular time period and only for the followers of that particular prophet. He did not find any need to preserve all the previous books because he didn't want to. He did not say in any of those books bible, torah, jaboor etc that he will keep those preserved. He said so in the last and final revelation Quran. He also said in each any every book that there will be a final prophet when the time is right and you all need to follow him then.
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  #214  
Old 26.08.2009, 10:15
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Re: Religious Musings

Dervaish:
I am sure non-moslem aren't allowed to enter main mosque of Mecca and the area, since at least decades.
They may even check inside your trousers if u r male!:-)
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  #215  
Old 26.08.2009, 10:29
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Re: Religious Musings

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Dervaish:
I am sure non-moslem aren't allowed to enter main mosque of Mecca and the area, since at least decades.
They may even check inside your trousers if u r male!:-)
Hahaha... well in that case beng a Jew or Mormon would help.. but dont think they check inside the trousers though.

There has been occasions where some non-muslims tried to "sabotage" and since then the security precautions has been updated.

However at another incident... French Special Services were called inside the main mosque of Mecca for help.

So its more politically driven then ethically or religiously.
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  #216  
Old 26.08.2009, 10:38
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Re: Religious Musings

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Because these books were meant for a particular time period and only for the followers of that particular prophet. He did not find any need to preserve all the previous books because he didn't want to.
God also made sure that those who follow the last relevation aren't very prosperous compared to the rest of the world, and made them miserable in their faith, to test it.
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  #217  
Old 26.08.2009, 10:43
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Re: Religious Musings

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God also made sure that those who follow the last relevation aren't very prosperous compared to the rest of the world, and made them miserable in their faith, to test it.
When was the last time you read some History?
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  #218  
Old 26.08.2009, 10:54
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Re: Religious Musings

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When was the last time you read some History?
Oh I quite like history. But to an infidel like me the whole idea of an intervening god makes awfully little sense. Now if you see god as a passive, allmighty entity that just happened to have created the universe with all its billions of planets and afterwards doesn't care much what we do with it... that would make sense.
But if you consider him as a constantly intervening god who you can pray to and who might help you, who'll tell a few selected persons what he thinks and they better write it down... that sounds like an awfully silly, inefficient god. If he's all that mighty no need to tell it just to 1 commoner who happens to be one of a million who claims to have recieved the word of god. And after all, if god actively and selectively does acts of benevolence why is the world such a mess, especially the muslim world ?
Why does he grant infidels so much more love and luck to a point that a great number of believers want to emmigrate to their lands ?
Doesn't make much sense now does it ? In fact there is not the slightest hint that believers of any religion or god have any spiritual, worldy advantages over any other group of people. They don't die less often in traffic accidents, they don't win the lottery more often... so what are you praying for ?
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  #219  
Old 26.08.2009, 10:55
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Re: Religious Musings

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God also made sure that those who follow the last relevation aren't very prosperous compared to the rest of the world, and made them miserable in their faith, to test it.
Muslims were prosperous in history and they still are. Although everybody cannot be in the same situation as mentioned in these verses below.

The Glorius Quran says:
[29:2-3] "Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being put to the test?" We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

[3:179] GOD is not to leave the believers as you are, without distinguishing the bad from the good.

[2:214] Do you expect to enter Paradise without being tested like those before you?
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  #220  
Old 26.08.2009, 11:00
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Re: Religious Musings

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Muslims were prosperous in history and they still are. Although everybody cannot be in the same situation as mentioned in these verses below.

The Glorius Quran says:
[29:2-3] "Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being put to the test?" We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

[3:179] GOD is not to leave the believers as you are, without distinguishing the bad from the good.

[2:214] Do you expect to enter Paradise without being tested like those before you?
Sure, with 72 virgins waiting to make contact, one can't take chances
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