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  #281  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:05
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Re: Religious Musings

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Ok scrap the Karzai stuff but the divorce bit, is it the case that the man has only to say "I divorce you" three times and what is the procedure for women ? I honestly dont know but its what i can find "on the internet" if that counts for anything.
Divorce would ONLY happen, when the Husband says those dreaded words.

But woman can ask for it
A court can also enforce it
Woman can have it written down in the Marriage contract, like a provision
Woman can negotiate her dowry in exchange for a divorce.
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  #282  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:05
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Re: Religious Musings

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Ok scrap the Karzai stuff but the divorce bit, is it the case that the man has only to say "I divorce you" three times and what is the procedure for women ? I honestly dont know but its what i can find "on the internet" if that counts for anything.
I have mentioned the procedure of women taking divorce in my earlier post.

Okay i agree that man can divorce by saying "I divorce you". After saying this he has to be living with the wife for 4 months. And if they still after 4 months do want to live as husband and wife then the divorce is complete. Keep in mind he may have to pay for the maintenance of the wife in certain conditions until a period of time. He cannot take back the gifts given to her and also he has to pay a sum pn money as agreed during marriage.
Maintenance and security of women is an important aspect of marriage in Islam.

Last edited by ITguy; 26.08.2009 at 15:08. Reason: mistake
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  #283  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:06
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Re: Religious Musings

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<snipped> .. but the divorce bit, is it the case that the man has only to say "I divorce you" three times and what is the procedure for women ? I honestly dont know but its what i can find "on the internet" if that counts for anything.
"Divorce" / "Separation" is called Talak - more info here on a Singaporean website.
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  #284  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:07
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Re: Religious Musings

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Afghanistan forced through the law which makes it legal for men to starve their wives of food if they refuse sex.
how is this related to ISLAM ?
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  #285  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:12
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Re: Religious Musings

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Eeh? Please explain, in particular the Scientific bits of the Quran. I thought it was mainly religious/philosophical...

I know arabs made huge scientific progress during the period 800-1200 (AFAIR) - but it then stopped, I think for religious/political reasons.
I will have to search and copy and paste bits to do that...just few examples from Chapter 21, Al Anbiya


30. Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (Big Bang Theory, and origin of life in water)
31. And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance. (Geology, mountains help balance the Earth)
32. And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)! (Ozone layer around?)33. It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course. (Planets moving in circles, Astronomy)
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  #286  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:20
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Re: Religious Musings

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Eeh? Please explain, in particular the Scientific bits of the Quran. I thought it was mainly religious/philosophical...

I know arabs made huge scientific progress during the period 800-1200 (AFAIR) - but it then stopped, I think for religious/political reasons.
I you are interested go through the following debate in US that happened between Dr. Richard Campbel (from Christans side) and Dr. Zakir Naik (from Muslim side). They discuss in great detail about the scientific bits in Quran and Bible and then you can decide which is scientific and which one is not.

(it's in 10parts on youtube)
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  #287  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:26
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Re: Religious Musings

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30. Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (Big Bang Theory, and origin of life in water)
The rest doesn't make much sense to me, but are you saying that (learned) Muslims do believe in evolution and discard that whole creationism nonsense like Atheists do ?
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  #288  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:29
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Re: Religious Musings

Mr Dervaish, I take it you are no big fan of Ibn Warraq (who was raised in your country), Ayaan Hirsi Ali and other ex Muslims who criticise their former faith. Have you read any of their work? Do you entirely reject the opinions of those "infidels" or do you admit they strike home on certain points?
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  #289  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:31
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Re: Religious Musings

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The rest doesn't make much sense to me, but are you saying that (learned) Muslims do believe in evolution and discard that whole creationism nonsense like Atheists do ?
Not quite... Big Bang Theory and Evolution Theory as means to understand How Universe was created... or how life appeared in so many forms... YES

Creator is still God, but more like means to learning HOW all was created.. by God.. unlike Atheists.

Reason: You cannot create anything from Zero or Nothing... There has to be "something" to start with .. where did "Water" came from or who created all the ingredients of Big Bang and how it was set in motion... Design Argument its called.
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  #290  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:34
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Re: Religious Musings

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He says in Quran that He can forgive any sin other than that of Associating partners with God.
You please God by following his commandments and keeping yourself away from what is prohibited.
From your description here, and from what I see and read, God loves and forgives you IF you meet certain criterias.

Here's my observation. Tell me if I am right:

I see Muslims diligently observing all the ordinances. But not only do they observe it on their own, they also insist EVERYBODY observe what they observer whether they want to or not. If they don't want to, then conquer and subjugate them if you must. Afterall, we don't want to displease God lest his wrath falls upon us.

The Christian God loves unconditionally, and there is nothing unforgivable by him. He sees the sorry state of mankind and desires to help. He is driven by compassion, not vengeance or retribution. All have sinned in one form or another. Nobody deserves to be forgiven. Therefore, he extends his forgiveness before it is even asked for.


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I take your point...for now.. but 1 question..

According to Christianity or Christian God.. what is the Purpose of Life?
What is the purpose of Universal Justice, if it exists.. or of Heaven or Hell if Jesus died for our sins... meaning we are all Sinless, now and ever.
To love God. To conform to the likeness of His son. To do the will of god. To receive the gifts he bestows us. To share in the inheritance of His son. To witness the works of God. To experience this gift called Life.

Hell is separation from God.
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  #291  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:36
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Re: Religious Musings

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Mr Dervaish, I take it you are no big fan of Ibn Warraq (who was raised in your country), Ayaan Hirsi Ali and other ex Muslims who criticise their former faith. Have you read any of their work? Do you entirely reject the opinions of those "infidels" or do you admit they strike home on certain points?
No I have not heard about him or read his works.. I would want to though.

But in my experience, I have heard any credible argument, nor they openly come out or speak out as in a debate.

Yes they would probably be "Executed' for airing their views in their home countries.. but they can surely do that in Western countries who have provided them asylum.
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  #292  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:39
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Re: Religious Musings

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Not quite... Big Bang Theory and Evolution Theory as means to understand How Universe was created... or how life appeared in so many forms... YES

Creator is still God, but more like means to learning HOW all was created.. by God.. unlike Atheists.

Reason: You cannot create anything from Zero or Nothing... There has to be "something" to start with .. where did "Water" came from or who created all the ingredients of Big Bang and hot it was set in motion... Design Argument its called.
Not quite, an Atheist may agree that we do not know precisely how the whole process was triggered, and that it may well have been God who pushed the button. It isn't essential to a scientific worldview at all to deny anything where we have limited to no knowledge about. But we do most certainly know that there is an constant change and evolution in all lifeforms and that the earth is slightly older than 6000 years. But I had no idea so far that Muslims agree with evolution.
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  #293  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:42
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Re: Religious Musings

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He sees the sorry state of mankind and desires to help. He is driven by compassion, not vengeance or retribution.
He is indeed a God of Love, however the Bible also speaks of his Wrath against transgressors e.g. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah and the flood etc..
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  #294  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:43
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Re: Religious Musings

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Eeh? Please explain, in particular the Scientific bits of the Quran. I thought it was mainly religious/philosophical...

I know arabs made huge scientific progress during the period 800-1200 (AFAIR) - but it then stopped, I think for religious/political reasons.

a veru intersting video i went through



and some basic law of physics
The universe originated from smoke.

the big bang theory, its mentioned in quran

leech shape of embryo mentioned in quran
What forms in the embryo first, the muscles or the bones?

Moon's S-shaped orbit around earth is shaped like a branch of a date tree, mentioned in the Noble Quran and confirmed by Science!

Moon is mentioned 28 times in the Noble Quran, exactly as the number of times and phases it appears to earth!

The Geological Miracle in Noble Verses 30:2-5 (the place where the Romans were defeated).

If the Noble Quran says the earth is "egg-shaped" through a Notion, then why couldn't Prophet Muhammad just say it clear in plain Arabic?

Mountains prevent the earth from shaking while rotating around its own axle

Honey was proven to be a healing medicine for humans. we have a complete chapter regarding honey and its benifits infact, its the benifit of hiney and following islam, all my office collegues got sick of flue and were outt of work and since years i have never felt flue

The Universe is "expanding" according to the Noble Quran. Scientists already proved this claim to be true.

there are many and many miracles of quran even we muslims have not yet revealed yet

and we believe the book before these miracles, because the book was given to us by a man called ameen and best person of his time before he claimed prophecy
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  #295  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:44
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Re: Religious Musings

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Not quite, an Atheist may agree that we do not know precisely how the whole process was triggered, and that it may well have been God who pushed the button. It isn't essential to a scientific worldview at all to deny anything where we have limited to no knowledge about. But we do most certainly know that there is an constant change and evolution in all lifeforms and that the earth is slightly older than 6000 years. But I had no idea so far that Muslims agree with evolution.
Muslims agree or disagree is another matter but what I quoted are exact verses from Quran, revealed long before Darwin or Max Plank were even conceived.

However "Evolution", as we kow it, is a debatable thing, hence its still called Evolution THEORY, not a Scientific Law or Postulate which are accepted by Scientists Universally e.g. Boyle's Law or Newtons Law

Evolution is a Theory so is Relativity by Einstein
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  #296  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:52
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Re: Religious Musings

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He is indeed a God of Love, however the Bible also speaks of his Wrath against transgressors e.g. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah and the flood etc..

Absolutely. There is wrath for the unbelievers, but there is no condemnation in Christ. There is discipline for his children.
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  #297  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:55
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Re: Religious Musings

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Absolutely. There is wrath for the unbelievers, but there is no condemnation in Christ. There is discipline for his children.
Also if Jesus was Son of God... then why do Luke and Mathew (if I remember correctly) give 2 different geneologies of Jesus... linking him to Humans... and both Geneologies of Jesus have not even 1 name common?
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  #298  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:56
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Re: Religious Musings

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Muslims agree or disagree is another matter but what I quoted are exact verses from Quran, revealed long before Darwin or Max Plank were even conceived.

However "Evolution", as we kow it, is a debatable thing, hence its still called Evolution THEORY, not a Scientific Law or Postulate which are accepted by Scientists Universally e.g. Boyle's Law or Newtons Law

Evolution is a Theory so is Relativity by Einstein
Evolution isn't debatable really, there is no denying that lifeforms change and adapt. Pig flu just as a recent example of a morphed organism. And that is the core idea which Christians (the more stupid ones of course, not all oft hem) disagree with. They think God created all living beings at once, and in perfection. And if the Quran sais that all life comes from water.. well then surely they cannot deny that there weren't a whole lot of hairy monkeys swimming in the water...so therefore they believe in evolution.
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  #299  
Old 26.08.2009, 15:58
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Re: Religious Musings

can anyone try to expalin this

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]

then how can be jesus god

a complete contradiction
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  #300  
Old 26.08.2009, 16:01
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Re: Religious Musings

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Evolution isn't debatable really, there is no denying that lifeforms change and adapt. Pig flu just as a recent example of a morphed organism. And that is the core idea which Christians (the more stupid ones of course, not all oft hem) disagree with. They think God created all living beings at once, and in perfection. And if the Quran sais that all life comes from water.. well then surely they cannot deny that there weren't a whole lot of hairy monkeys swimming in the water...so therefore they believe in evolution.
Errr... you sure you are not confusing "Evolution" with "Mutation" ?
One depicts change in "Species" and the later only breakdown of "Genes" within the species.

Also Mutation is a negative thing... a puppy born with 5 limbs or without eyes is Mutation.

Dogs of different breeds is NOT Evolution or Mutation.

I would love to debate this, if you would have some biology background

But will say one thing... Evolution is STILL regarded as a "Theory" even within Western Scientific circles... not a FACT as media oftentries to educate us

There is a very good Turkish Writer and Researcher Harun Yahya, you can read about his work online.. if interested.
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