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  #421  
Old 26.08.2009, 22:01
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Re: Religious Musings

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That is EXACTLY the point of disagreement. This is a theory that has yet to be scientifically proven, yet you embrace it as fact.

It's not a point of convincing someone otherwise. At this point, I have to ask; whare is the science?
Fact = Law on our previous discussion. Something that has been observed so many time over the ages, that we accept it as fact. But if something new comes up, we embrace it. One could say that the sun rises is fact in common day parlance. No one thinks the theory of evolution is a fact. Yet again, you try to twist our words, but it is all plain to read above. It is a theory we have developed to explain the 'facts' we observe around us.

The irony is that we do have evidence for our theories. Whereas you would have us believe your religious mumbo jumbo with no evidence AT ALL. So back at you, mate.
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  #422  
Old 26.08.2009, 22:01
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Re: Religious Musings

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That is EXACTLY the point of disagreement. This is a theory that has yet to be scientifically proven, yet you embrace it as fact.

It's not a point of convincing someone otherwise. At this point, I have to ask; whare is the science?
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  #423  
Old 26.08.2009, 22:04
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Re: Sawm of Ramadan ( 2009 )

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Ha ha. I stated my points to which you've had no intelligent response. As I said before, I am not going to repeat myself. And you've both taken the debate to the level of a 5 year old, which I fear is your understanding of science. Regardless, as I stated I went OUTSIDE for some exercise, wine, and merriment.

Re Jesus/Rome/Bible, I made my humourous point, which you completely missed; at least the Muslim got it.

When you've got something intelligent to say, I will respond.

And I must say, what is this crap about negative mutations?!?! It makes no sense, not even in English. If you understand the whole point of evolution and the debate of design vs evolution, then it is that there is no postive/negative/whatever judgements on a mutation. It either propagates due to survival or due to competitive advantage or it doesn't.

Again, I suggest you read Dawkins to learn about evolution first. As for transitional species, they exist plain for us to see in the fossil record. And in experiements performed in the lab, we see them all the time for 'simpler' organisms that we can play around with. As for our day-to-day lives, I will say ONE LAST TIME, we live in a very short time scale compared to the age of the planet and that which evolution has occurred, so we obviously won't see species appearing and disappearing at the zoo.

As for the discussion of physics, am happy to do so anytime, as that is my expertise.

I always find it amusing that religious extremists/literalists only choose evolution to fight against, but not the big bang, cosmic evolution, the melting of ice, how birds fly. They all are science. Why is that. Does it hurt your pride that you aren't so special?

Come to Talacker night and am happy to argue in person. Do your reading beforehand. We can argue science as much as you want. There is no need argueing religion as it can't be by definition. I will bring with me my personal experience and the experience of others that can be reproduced.
I for one would love to go, but can't i have family visiting from over the atlantic. je je je....
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  #424  
Old 26.08.2009, 22:07
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Re: Religious Musings

While you're doing all the readinh we've suggested before we can properly debate evolution, something which we scientist do ALL THE TIME (we're a skeptical bunch), you should look for the star-nosed mole. If one looks at how it's nose develops in the embryo, then God would have to one drunk idiot to have designed the nose that way. But if you understand it as the random result of cumulative selection over trillions of years, you can see how the ridiculously cumbersome and inefficient development in the embryo could have arisen.

You see, we have our examples too. And thanks again for bringing up the moth example not resulting from mutation. I forget that I have to be very explicit in these discussions; subtelty and intelligence can't be assumed.
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  #425  
Old 26.08.2009, 22:09
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Re: Sawm of Ramadan ( 2009 )

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I for one would love to go, but can't i have family visiting from over the atlantic. je je je....
I should have said 'the next' Talcker Night, not tonight's as I am in Washington State. A few bible thumpers around here too.

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  #426  
Old 26.08.2009, 22:15
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Re: Sawm of Ramadan ( 2009 )

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....
Re Jesus/Rome/Bible, I made my humourous point, which you completely missed; at least the Muslim got it.
.....
When you've got something intelligent to say, I will respond.
....
And I must say, what is this crap about negative mutations?!?! It makes no sense, not even in English. If you understand the whole point of evolution and the debate of design vs evolution, then it is that there is no postive/negative/whatever judgements on a mutation. It either propagates due to survival or due to competitive advantage or it doesn't.
.....

Negative mutation? WTF are you talking about? Who said anything about negative mutation?

Dude, I think you've been drinking.

Making a post you can't back, then calling it humour, then trying to ridicule me? Pleaaze....

Don't post your bullshit around here, alright? You'll get caught.
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  #427  
Old 26.08.2009, 22:22
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Re: Religious Musings


That guy looks like he smokes crack.

Actually, in regards to cross-breeding, there is mention in Genesis 6 of extra-terrestials breeding with the daughters of men. There offsprings were a breed called Nephilim.

Don't ask me what that is about. I don't know.

And no, I don't run my life according to the details of this subject matter.
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  #428  
Old 26.08.2009, 22:24
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Re: Sawm of Ramadan ( 2009 )

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Negative mutation? WTF are you talking about? Who said anything about negative mutation?
The Muslim did. I should have put a separating line that I was moving onto him.
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  #429  
Old 26.08.2009, 22:30
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Re: Religious Musings

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That guy looks like he smokes crack.
What if he did? It wouldn't make him any less right.
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  #430  
Old 26.08.2009, 22:35
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Re: Religious Musings

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What if he did? It wouldn't make him any less right.
No, of course not. The man has a good compelling argument of a particular point. Is it true? I don't really know. I don't really care. Is he right? Chances are, no. It's based on extrapolation of incomplete data.
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  #431  
Old 26.08.2009, 22:42
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Re: Religious Musings

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No, of course not. The man has a good compelling argument of a particular point. Is it true? I don't really know. I don't really care. Is he right? Chances are, no. It's based on extrapolation of incomplete data.
What incomplete data?

Why is it that whenever you complain about the theory of evolution, you do not propose your theory of biblical innerancy as a viable alternative scientific theory?
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  #432  
Old 26.08.2009, 23:41
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Re: Religious Musings

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But if you understand it as the random result of cumulative selection over trillions of years
Trillions of years of cumulative selection??? given that the earth is approximately 4.54 billion years old, it certainly wouldn't have been on this planet.
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  #433  
Old 26.08.2009, 23:49
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Re: Religious Musings

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What incomplete data?
Dude wasn't there.


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Why is it that whenever you complain about the theory of evolution, you do not propose your theory of biblical innerancy as a viable alternative scientific theory?
Actually I have proposed other theories. I don't see Genesis as a scientific treatise.

I don't have too much of a problem with the part of the Theory of Evolution (TOE) where species evolve. I do believe species evolve. To me, evolution merely means an ability to learn over time.

I have a problem with a postulation in popular TOE that life formed through sheer probability, that a chain of DNA accidentally formed that became self-reproducing, that all life on earth began from a particular amoeba. Given the complexity of DNA structures, I do not believe it is even mathematically possible.

I believe the formation of life was guided by an external force. The forces could have come in the form of radiation, magnetics, permutation of physical structures, an energy, or a law we do not understand. I consider life as a form of energy that is not very well understood by scientists. Unfortunately, TOE debaters are not interested in considering an external factor as it might point to a God they dread to hear about.

I know that at this point, someone will point out that TOE does not account, or need to account for the beginning. Yet, it is connoted in the theory.

I think there is consciousness that is pervasive throughout the universe. I believe there is a mind behind all things. All things have an idea on which it is based on. For example, consider a star. Stars exists throughout the universe... billions of billions of them. Stars have similarities from one end of the universe to another. Stars are an expression of an archetype of what stars are and do. This archetype is the idea of a star. In the same way, I think lifeform are also expression of an archetype of an ideal lifeform.

I don't see events that take place in space and time as discreet events. I believe all events in the universe are interconnected and have a corellation to a higher order we are not aware or conscious of. Seemingly discreet events are orchestrated from some other controlling factor.

Sorry. I have to finish this some other time.
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  #434  
Old 27.08.2009, 00:24
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Re: Religious Musings

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Dude wasn't there.


I don't have too much of a problem with the part of the Theory of Evolution (TOE) where species evolve. I do believe species evolve. To me, evolution merely means an ability to learn over time.

I have a problem with a postulation in popular TOE that life formed through sheer probability, that a chain of DNA accidentally formed that became self-reproducing, that all life on earth began from a particular amoeba. Given the complexity of DNA structures, I do not believe it is even mathematically possible.
To my best knowledge, TOE does not state anything about how life started - "only" the mechanisms that has governed it afterwards. It is intellectually consistent to claim that God (or the Flying Spaghetti Monster) created a simple lifeform which then evolved to all the lifeforms you see around.

However, your use of the word evolutions is different from the one used in biology. The bacteria/antibiotic is a good example:

A high dosis of antibiotic will kill all bacteria. A lower dosis will stress them, and only the ones coping best will multiply. After a number of generations the bacteria can cope with doses that would have killed all the bacteria of the first generation. This is not about learning, as we are talking bacteria and several generations.

This is why it is important to take the whole treatment if you are on antibiotics...
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  #435  
Old 27.08.2009, 00:36
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Re: Religious Musings

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I'm not sure that qualifies as mutation. It's more like adaptation. You lift weights, you grow muscles.
Sorry, I was not precise enough: Some rats have a mutation that allows them to survive the rat poison. They beget a family of poison-resistant rats (as they are the only ones surviving).

Your muscles grow on an individual basis. Evolution works on species.

And for the lack of transitional species: Think of whales. They have tiny remains of rear legs deep inside the body, serving no particular purpose. Looks transitional to me.

If I was a designer, I would not have forced whales to go to the surface to breathe - gills would be better. And a designer who came up with the platypus certainly would have a good sense of humour - or needed to tidy up the desk.
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  #436  
Old 27.08.2009, 02:02
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Re: Religious Musings

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Why is it that whenever you complain about the theory of evolution, you do not propose your theory of biblical innerancy as a viable alternative scientific theory?
i believe phos' viable alternative scientific theory can be summarized as: "god did it."
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  #437  
Old 27.08.2009, 02:44
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Re: Religious Musings

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Dude wasn't there.




Actually I have proposed other theories. I don't see Genesis as a scientific treatise.

I don't have too much of a problem with the part of the Theory of Evolution (TOE) where species evolve. I do believe species evolve. To me, evolution merely means an ability to learn over time.

I have a problem with a postulation in popular TOE that life formed through sheer probability, that a chain of DNA accidentally formed that became self-reproducing, that all life on earth began from a particular amoeba. Given the complexity of DNA structures, I do not believe it is even mathematically possible.

I believe the formation of life was guided by an external force. The forces could have come in the form of radiation, magnetics, permutation of physical structures, an energy, or a law we do not understand. I consider life as a form of energy that is not very well understood by scientists. Unfortunately, TOE debaters are not interested in considering an external factor as it might point to a God they dread to hear about.

I know that at this point, someone will point out that TOE does not account, or need to account for the beginning. Yet, it is connoted in the theory.

I think there is consciousness that is pervasive throughout the universe. I believe there is a mind behind all things. All things have an idea on which it is based on. For example, consider a star. Stars exists throughout the universe... billions of billions of them. Stars have similarities from one end of the universe to another. Stars are an expression of an archetype of what stars are and do. This archetype is the idea of a star. In the same way, I think lifeform are also expression of an archetype of an ideal lifeform.

I don't see events that take place in space and time as discreet events. I believe all events in the universe are interconnected and have a corellation to a higher order we are not aware or conscious of. Seemingly discreet events are orchestrated from some other controlling factor.

Sorry. I have to finish this some other time.
Again, I will state my basis for atheism, that no matter how unlikely you think evolutionary theory may be, it is even more unlikely that some external sentient being sprang out of thin air (or existed eternally) that could create us. It is far more likely that we did just spring out of nowhere ourselves, or our universe existed eternally, all you do is add an extra layer to the complexity to our existence without any reason. If god can just exist, then so can the universe. You may feel the need for a creator of the universe, but I don't.

Sometimes I think that what you actually want to feel is that we are all a part some greater being, as if we were in fact a cell in a being greater than yourself, which could of course be true, though personally, I think I'd rather my cells were getting on with their job rather than celebrating my existence.

This raises all sorts of questions of course, like, what is our job in life? To which you will answer that our answers are in the bible, but our answers are also in the Quran, the teachings of Buddha, Hinduism, Mormonism and, I'm sure, a lot of others, all conflicting.

As an admission on my part, I don't have a problem with Jesus as a philosopher, I think a philosophy of "do unto others as you would have done unto you" a fairly fine point that I can understand, I don't think this philosophy is divine, but a fine point worth considering, and one that's easily arrived at by reason. I also have a certain admiration for some of the teachings of Islam, I also like some of the aspects of Hinduism, but I would not dare to comment on them only because my knowledge of them is hearsay.

I do have a problem with religions and faiths in that they think their reasoning is divine, and beyond question, in particular (and only because it si most relevant to me in a western society), the new christian doctrine of forgiving everyone. It exempts you from society, you can be an absolute and utter **** to all around, but your imaginary friend will forgive you. This gives a person the feeling of unaccountability. Most people do not ascribe to this view, and no matter how much you will quote figures of believers at me, it is proven by our systems and laws of justice to hold people to democratic justice.

Some would say it is safest to assume there is an almighty being and that their rules should be followed, I would say, that given the conflicting theological views, it is sanest to assume there is not. In pretty much every sense we'll go to hell by somebodies standards whatever we do, but if we ignore them, we can actually improve our lives.
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  #438  
Old 27.08.2009, 02:59
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Re: Religious Musings

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Trillions of years of cumulative selection??? given that the earth is approximately 4.54 billion years old, it certainly wouldn't have been on this planet.
Yes, sorry, should have been billions. Even the universe's age is in billions, so it wouldn't have been on any planet. I was getting carried away with religious fervour.
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  #439  
Old 27.08.2009, 03:09
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Re: Religious Musings

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I have a problem with a postulation in popular TOE that life formed through sheer probability, that a chain of DNA accidentally formed that became self-reproducing, that all life on earth began from a particular amoeba. Given the complexity of DNA structures, I do not believe it is even mathematically possible.
Again you miss the point of CUMULATIVE selection. You are in the mindset of the probability of a single event. It's quite probably, actually. Have you done the math; have you thought about evolution without bias. I have, and so have many others. The conclusion is that it is the best theory we have.

P.S. The probability of some sadistic asshole of a God (reference: Old Testament) appearing in a poof and creating everything is of probability in practice zero. Anytime you try to argue using math or science, you fail. have you made an effort to actually learn the field before criticising it? Doesnt seem so. What you say, God was always there. Well, we would say the universe was.

While we're on it, can you monotheists please tell us why one god is preferable. Please don't respond with "There can only be one". Zero is simpler anyways.
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  #440  
Old 27.08.2009, 03:12
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Re: Religious Musings

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I think there is consciousness that is pervasive throughout the universe. I believe there is a mind behind all things. All things have an idea on which it is based on.

...

I don't see events that take place in space and time as discreet events. I believe all events in the universe are interconnected and have a corellation to a higher order we are not aware or conscious of. Seemingly discreet events are orchestrated from some other controlling factor.
Well, we may not have shown you the way to understanding evolution, but it seems we've converted you from Christianity to Hinduism. Well done, Boys!

P.S. Your use of discreet is incorrect. Presumably you mean discrete. But then again, the use is incorrect. Discrete has no relation to not being interconnected. There is discrete and there is continuous. Look it up.
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