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  #441  
Old 27.08.2009, 03:54
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Re: Religious Musings

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To my best knowledge, TOE does not state anything about how life started - "only" the mechanisms that has governed it afterwards. It is intellectually consistent to claim that God (or the Flying Spaghetti Monster) created a simple lifeform which then evolved to all the lifeforms you see around.

It does not formally state the origins of life for the reason that it cannot. But it is common understanding the this is connoted in TOE. Non-scientist proponents of TOE have a politcal agenda of debunking religion rather than the merits of the science. So in discussions such as these, it becomes an issue of religious bigotry.

I believe part of this agenda is to eliminate the teaching of creationism (religion). Along with it is an attempt to redefine morals. In effect, to create a new religion. Perhaps they don't realize is that religions are based on faith, which by definition is a belief in what is unseen.

This component of the movement does very little in the promotion of the study of TOE. What they accomplish is a rift between science and religion. What they don't realize is the resistance, not so much to TOE, but their political agenda is quite formidable.



Exhibit A: The shrillness of proponents of TOE shown to equal that of religious fanatics:

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P.S. The probability of some sadistic asshole of a God (reference: Old Testament) appearing in a poof and creating everything is of probability in practice zero. Anytime you try to argue using math or science, you fail. have you made an effort to actually learn the field before criticising it? Doesnt seem so. What you say, God was always there. Well, we would say the universe was.

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  #442  
Old 27.08.2009, 08:52
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Re: Religious Musings

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And I must say, what is this crap about negative mutations?!?! It makes no sense, not even in English. If you understand the whole point of evolution and the debate of design vs evolution, then it is that there is no postive/negative/whatever judgements on a mutation. It either propagates due to survival or due to competitive advantage or it doesn't.
You're right of course generally HashBrown, but scientists do indeed talk of "harmful", if not negative mutation in cells. Here is what Wiki sais:

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Changes in DNA caused by mutation can cause errors in protein sequence, creating partially or completely non-functional proteins. To function correctly, each cell depends on thousands of proteins to function in the right places at the right times. When a mutation alters a protein that plays a critical role in the body, a medical condition can result. A condition caused by mutations in one or more genes is called a genetic disorder. Some mutations alter a gene's DNA base sequence but do not change the function of the protein made by the gene. Studies in the fly Drosophila melanogaster suggest that if a mutation does change a protein, this will probably be harmful, with about 70 percent of these mutations having damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or weakly beneficial.[8]
(..)
Often, gene mutations that could cause a genetic disorder are repaired by the DNA repair system of the cell. Each cell has a number of pathways through which enzymes recognize and repair mistakes in DNA. Because DNA can be damaged or mutated in many ways, the process of DNA repair is an important way in which the body protects itself from disease.
But of course you were talking about mutation of an organism as a whole, not a cell mutation.
But how could anyone deny inheritable mutation ? The notion seems so strange to me that you would have to discard all of biology, medicine etc.
If you don't believe in mutation of a species then you deny the existance of a new flu virus, slightly delusional as usual.

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I'm not sure that qualifies as mutation. It's more like adaptation. You lift weights, you grow muscles.
You grow muscles individually, but mutation gets inherited. That's the point.
The rats offspring will be immune to a certain kind of poison, they're not "trained" for it as you suggest.
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  #443  
Old 27.08.2009, 09:29
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Re: Religious Musings

RICHARD DAWKINS CANNOT GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF BENEFICIAL MUTATION

http://en.harunyahya.tv/videoDetail/...ICIAL_MUTATION
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  #444  
Old 27.08.2009, 09:42
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Re: Religious Musings

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It does not formally state the origins of life for the reason that it cannot. But it is common understanding the this is connoted in TOE. Non-scientist proponents of TOE have a politcal agenda of debunking religion rather than the merits of the science. So in discussions such as these, it becomes an issue of religious bigotry.

I believe part of this agenda is to eliminate the teaching of creationism (religion). Along with it is an attempt to redefine morals. In effect, to create a new religion. Perhaps they don't realize is that religions are based on faith, which by definition is a belief in what is unseen.
TOE is not _concerned_ with the origin of life. I think you mixed the two things.

There sure is an agenda of keeping creationism out of science classes. Rightly so, because it is not science (you say it is religion yourself), you cannot set up can experiment that supports a creationist theory.

As opposed to this, evolution _is_ recreated in the lab, and there are attempts (so far unsuccessful) to create life from non-life. It has not been done yet, but it could in principle be doable.

PS: I am aware that creationists come in several flavours - I find the young-earth variety quite hilarious.
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  #445  
Old 27.08.2009, 10:05
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Re: Religious Musings

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While I can see that some of the verses you quote can be interpreted to support your claims, I very much doubt that the fathers of e.g. Big Bang theory had them in mind (or even knowledge of them) when they worked on that theory. If they didn't, you cannot say the theory has a link to the Quran.

Can someone please explain me how mountains balance the Earth, btw? I honestly don't get it.
Yes certainly nowhere is Quran is mentioned as Reference point in References and Bibliographies.

Just that Chemistry and Biology/Medicine was originated and introduced to West by Muslims... also Mathematics and modern numbers.

Good old wikipedia can be good starting point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna

We can make claims and counter claims about how did what... but the point is how did Muhammad knew about Big Bang and other thing mentioned in Quran.. which were only scientifically proven many centuries after.

Re mountains:

Compressional forces in continental collisions may cause the compressed region to thicken, so the upper surface is forced upward. In order to balance the weight of the earth surface, much of the compressed rock is forced downward, producing deep "mountain roots" [see the Book of "Earth", Press and Siever page.413].

Source Wikipedia
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  #446  
Old 27.08.2009, 10:18
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Re: Religious Musings

Earth, Life, Universe - Creation by Chance.

Human Eye

The human eye is enormously complicated - a perfect and interrelated system of about 40 individual subsystems, including the retina, pupil, iris, cornea, lens and optic nerve. For instance, the retina has approximately 137 million special cells that respond to light and send messages to the brain. About 130 million of these cells look like rods and handle the black and white vision. The other seven million are cone shaped and allow us to see in color. The retina cells receive light impressions, which are translated to electric pulses and sent to the brain via the optic nerve. A special section of the brain called the visual cortex interprets the pulses to color, contrast, depth, etc., which allows us to see "pictures" of our world. Incredibly, the eye, optic nerve and visual cortex are totally separate and distinct subsystems. Yet, together, they capture, deliver and interpret up to 1.5 million pulse messages a milli-second! It would take dozens of Cray supercomputers programmed perfectly and operating together flawlessly to even get close to performing this task.1


Darwin specifically discussing the incredible complexity of the eye in Origin of Species:

  • To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree possible. 3
3 Darwin, Origin of Species, 155.

Well.. the scientific folk must have read this ..right? Its from the Horse's mouth.

Its like saying... disintegrating a Watch (much less complicated then eye) and putting all components in a box and then shacking it randomly.. and hoping that one day they will all fir in nicely and Create a fully functional Watch.

And then all Planets coming into Perfect and Harmonious alignment, not too far or too close.. just the right distance so thay can Revolve in their Orbits via inter-planetry Centrifugal force?

Everything staying in their orbits, slight deviation and whole planetry system can collapse... assuming that coming into plae by chance is like saying... hitting the snooker balls randomly and hoping they will form a certain perfect pattern.

Atmospheric pressure being 760mm... which keeps the gasses at the right atmospheric levels and life can Exist... deviation of a decimal point and the life systems can collapse.

Force of gravity being 9.8 m/s ? Any more or any less will make the movement on Earth cumbersome?

I mean what exactly would be considered as "Scientific" evidence?
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  #447  
Old 27.08.2009, 10:23
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Re: Religious Musings

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Earth, Life, Universe - Creation by Chance.

Human Eye

The human eye is enormously complicated - a perfect and interrelated system of about 40 individual subsystems, including the retina, pupil, iris, cornea, lens and optic nerve. For instance, the retina has approximately 137 million special cells that respond to light and send messages to the brain. About 130 million of these cells look like rods and handle the black and white vision. The other seven million are cone shaped and allow us to see in color. The retina cells receive light impressions, which are translated to electric pulses and sent to the brain via the optic nerve. A special section of the brain called the visual cortex interprets the pulses to color, contrast, depth, etc., which allows us to see "pictures" of our world. Incredibly, the eye, optic nerve and visual cortex are totally separate and distinct subsystems. Yet, together, they capture, deliver and interpret up to 1.5 million pulse messages a milli-second! It would take dozens of Cray supercomputers programmed perfectly and operating together flawlessly to even get close to performing this task.1


Darwin specifically discussing the incredible complexity of the eye in Origin of Species:

  • To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree possible. 3
3 Darwin, Origin of Species, 155.
......and fortunately is well documented as a quotation that is taken wildly out of context. Just so we can complete what Darwin said it is listed here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part8.html

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory."
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  #448  
Old 27.08.2009, 10:28
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Re: Religious Musings

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Yes certainly nowhere is Quran is mentioned as Reference point in References and Bibliographies.

Just that Chemistry and Biology/Medicine was originated and introduced to West by Muslims... also Mathematics and modern numbers.
That is something different. Muslims (long after Muhammed had died) learned from Greek and Indian sources and progressed from there. I know Damascus was one of the World centres of knowledge about a thousand years ago. But I would argues it was not base on the rather vague descriptions in the Quran.

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Good old wikipedia can be good starting point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna

We can make claims and counter claims about how did what... but the point is how did Muhammad knew about Big Bang and other thing mentioned in Quran.. which were only scientifically proven many centuries after.
I claim he didn't, that is your interpretation of the verse. The description is fairly general and can be interpreted in a number of ways.

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Re mountains:

Compressional forces in continental collisions may cause the compressed region to thicken, so the upper surface is forced upward. In order to balance the weight of the earth surface, much of the compressed rock is forced downward, producing deep "mountain roots" [see the Book of "Earth", Press and Siever page.413].

Source Wikipedia
But what has that got to do with preventing the Earth from wobbling?
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  #449  
Old 27.08.2009, 10:33
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Re: Religious Musings

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......and fortunately is well documented as a quotation that is taken wildly out of context. Just so we can complete what Darwin said it is listed here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part8.html

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory."
In simple words.. You're trying to say sometime in Future with "advancement" of Science the Evolution Theory would be Proven right?

As there is certainly no proof at present! Note the if in yoru statement.
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  #450  
Old 27.08.2009, 10:40
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Re: Religious Musings

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RICHARD DAWKINS bla bla .....snip
Your god can't do jack sh!t Forget about giving examples of anything the lazy sucker can't even communicate. Hiding behind text written some 1000 to 5000 years ago by ignorant men. Why is your god so shy? Tell him to come forth and do the moonwalk for me. Jeez! he can't even hand his manual properly to me.


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bla bla .....snip
You said something about bible being edited and changed way too many times while quran is perfect and completely unedited for last 1400 years
You must be a really old man to have kept an eye on it for last 1400 years Anyone with an ounce of critical thinking can clearly see that quran is plagiarized from pre-Islamic texts. There is nothing divine about quran so either deal with it or continue living in your bubble. What worries me is that your bubble will get extended over Europe eventually. I really don't want to enter the dark ages in my life time.

Excerpt from Christopher Hitchens....

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  #451  
Old 27.08.2009, 10:45
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Re: Religious Musings

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In simple words.. You're trying to say sometime in Future with "advancement" of Science the Evolution Theory would be Proven right?

As there is certainly no proof at present! Note the if in yoru statement.
ive not even read it in details. I am just pointing out that the original quote purposely truncated the statement to make it look as if Darwin was hinting at God doing the magic when in fact if you look at the whole statement he is saying nothing of the sort.
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  #452  
Old 27.08.2009, 10:54
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Re: Religious Musings

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That is something different. Muslims (long after Muhammed had died) learned from Greek and Indian sources and progressed from there. I know Damascus was one of the World centres of knowledge about a thousand years ago. But I would argues it was not base on the rather vague descriptions in the Quran.



I claim he didn't, that is your interpretation of the verse. The description is fairly general and can be interpreted in a number of ways.



But what has that got to do with preventing the Earth from wobbling?
Perhaps you can give some examples of some Greek and Indian sources which would show that? (Since you have made that claim)

And if they were taken from Ancient Greece (Europe) then why did Europeans believed the earth to be flat in Middle ages?

We can make claims and counter claims all day long... unless you can draw some parallels between ancient beliefs and post christian and islamic beliefs.

Regarding preventing Earth from wobbling, I dont know the details, not an geologist.

If you're really interested, you can read on
http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php
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  #453  
Old 27.08.2009, 11:07
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Re: Religious Musings

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ive not even read it in details. I am just pointing out that the original quote purposely truncated the statement to make it look as if Darwin was hinting at God doing the magic when in fact if you look at the whole statement he is saying nothing of the sort.
Yes... Darwin didnt make any references to God doing magic.

But point being made was Evolution is an absurd and uproven Theory, even the person who propogated it at first.

Also, Darwin was a Believer in God himself and Darwin NEVER presented and defended his Theory, Work in front of the Royal Society of Science by himself.
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  #454  
Old 27.08.2009, 11:12
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Re: Religious Musings

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You said something about bible being edited and changed way too many times while quran is perfect and completely unedited for last 1400 years
You must be a really old man to have kept an eye on it for last 1400 years Anyone with an ounce of critical thinking can clearly see that quran is plagiarized from pre-Islamic texts. There is nothing divine about quran so either deal with it or continue living in your bubble. What worries me is that your bubble will get extended over Europe eventually. I really don't want to enter the dark ages in my life time.

Excerpt from Christopher Hitchens....

I guess you have'nt been following the Thread properly... Quran is collection of ALL Scriptures ever revealed on any Prophets from Adam (as) till Muhammad (as) 114,000 in total.

If you read Arabic Bible... many verses appear almost same as in Arabic Quran. Arabic Bible also uses the word Allah to define God.

As for scientific facts... if A says Earth is a sphere and B also says Earth is a sphere... it does not has to be plagiarism, just that both sources are stating same FACT.

Long before Christianity and Islam... even Plato had written his his work regarding Creator and Oneness of God... so what does that prove?
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Old 27.08.2009, 11:13
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Re: Religious Musings

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Yes... Darwin didnt make any references to God doing magic.

But point being made was Evolution is an absurd and uproven Theory, even the person who propogated it at first.

Also, Darwin was a Believer in God himself and Darwin NEVER presented and defended his Theory, Work in front of the Royal Society of Science by himself.
we are discussing different points. you are still ranting on about evolution and where it came from. I was pointing out that quotes are being placed wildly out of context.
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  #456  
Old 27.08.2009, 11:14
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Re: Religious Musings

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we are discussing different points. you are still ranting on about evolution and where it came from. I was pointing out that quotes are being placed wildly out of context.
Ok, Im sorry... I was not aware of the context
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Old 27.08.2009, 11:19
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Re: Religious Musings

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Your god can't do jack sh!t Forget about giving examples of anything the lazy sucker can't even communicate. Hiding behind text written some 1000 to 5000 years ago by ignorant men. Why is your god so shy? Tell him to come forth and do the moonwalk for me. Jeez! he can't even hand his manual properly to me.
Aparently He did shoe Himself to one of us, Moses... and he was not able to withstand His sight... even the mountain crushed to pieces.
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Old 27.08.2009, 11:20
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Re: Religious Musings

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If you're really interested, you can read on
http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php
Talk about stretching verses to fit your agenda Do you believe in the Iron miracle as well? LOL I heard that so many times from my mates.




Dervaish it's amazing that you appear to be a chilled out guy on one level and then completely lose the plot when it comes to your birth religion

In the words of great prophet Tony Montana-

"How'd you like it, man? They tell you all the time what to do, what to think, what to feel. Do you wanna be like a sheep? Like all those other people? Baah! Baah!"

Grow a pair will ya D dawg! Give me a woof homie!
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Old 27.08.2009, 11:32
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Re: Religious Musings

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Your god can't do jack sh!t Forget about giving examples of anything the lazy sucker can't even communicate. Hiding behind text written some 1000 to 5000 years ago by ignorant men. Why is your god so shy? Tell him to come forth and do the moonwalk for me. Jeez! he can't even hand his manual properly to me.
May be you need a lesson in proper speech and writing then we can talk to you about God and other stuff.

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You said something about bible being edited and changed way too many times while quran is perfect and completely unedited for last 1400 years
You must be a really old man to have kept an eye on it for last 1400 years Anyone with an ounce of critical thinking can clearly see that quran is plagiarized from pre-Islamic texts. There is nothing divine about quran so either deal with it or continue living in your bubble. What worries me is that your bubble will get extended over Europe eventually. I really don't want to enter the dark ages in my life time.
I m trying to look at the proofs you have provided to show Quran is modified. Ah wait a sec you did not provide any? So much so for your critical thinking.
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Old 27.08.2009, 11:36
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Talk about stretching verses to fit your agenda Do you believe in the Iron miracle as well? LOL I heard that so many times from my mates.

Dervaish it's amazing that you appear to be a chilled out guy on one level and then completely lose the plot when it comes to your birth religion

In the words of great prophet Tony Montana-

"How'd you like it, man? They tell you all the time what to do, what to think, what to feel. Do you wanna be like a sheep? Like all those other people? Baah! Baah!"

Grow a pair will ya D dawg! Give me a woof homie!
No, I have not heard of iron miracle.. do tell me..

I am a chilled out guy... not sure what you mean by "loosing the plot" .. just that sometimes it gets "intense" ... but am cool... just that we Pakis often come across as Firey...

God and family Blaad... no compromise.

but I like Tony Montana... this guy I know got arrested by police in London for p***in on the raod while drunk.. and he started shouting at the officer, in Tony Montana accent... "Call ya dawgs off me Maaain" .... well funny

here ya goo homie... WOOF
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