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  #521  
Old 27.08.2009, 16:05
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Re: Religious Musings

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http://info.math.nankai.edu.cn/navig...pics/Zero.html



Because they

a) were far more obsessed with making the World fit the Book, and

b) because they did not have the same access to the Greek works as the Arabs (Library in Alexandria contained a lot of them AFAIK)

An interesting subject btw, why did so much scientific progress in the muslim world happen until about 800 years ago, and so relatively little since?

I stop here, I see that the thread has gone somewhat downhill.



For example Mukherjee in [6] claims:-
... the mathematical conception of zero ... was also present in the spiritual form from 17 000 years back in India.
Its only a claim.. however.. I can agree with it.

Muhammad himself was Illiterate... and hardly travelled outside Mecca.

But anyway... Arabs managed to Plagiarise and consolidate all world knowledge into one book... and then started off setting a political movement to conquer Arabian peninsula, as suggested earlier.

One Chronological correction though, muslim progress or civilisation did not stop 800 years ago.. it only stopped around First world war time, when the Turkish Ottomans lost and Arabs, in a way, broke off (betrayed) with the Ottomon Leadership... and sided with the British/Allies.. as the Sesamic data/analysis around that time had shown that there were enough Oil reserves in the middle east region (Berlin to Baghdad railway proposal by Germans?)... and enough tribes were willing to do 'Anything" to get thier Sheikhdoms.

Europe was in the middle of an Industrial Revolution, looking for efficient means of Fuel, while Muslims in general were more involved with "Spirituality"... Art, music, architecture, poetry etc..

Last edited by Dervaish; 27.08.2009 at 16:23.
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  #522  
Old 27.08.2009, 16:17
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Re: Religious Musings

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For example Mukherjee in [6] claims:-
... the mathematical conception of zero ... was also present in the spiritual form from 17 000 years back in India.
Its only a claim.. however.. I can agree with it.

Muhammad himself as Illiterate... and hardly travelled outside Mecca.

But anyway... Arabs managed to Plagiarise and consolidate all world knowledge into one book... and then started off setting a political movement to conquer Arabian peninsula, as suggested earlier.
Addition to above:

And Muhammad (pbuh) was also able to choose the scientifically correct logic and put that into Quran and reject the false ones.

One verse is enough for such an argument.

“And thou (O Muhammad) wast not a reader of any scripture before it, nor didst thou write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood.” (The Glorius Quran Chapter Al-`Ankaboot: 48)
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  #523  
Old 27.08.2009, 16:30
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Re: Religious Musings

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For example Mukherjee in [6] claims:-
... the mathematical conception of zero ... was also present in the spiritual form from 17 000 years back in India.
Its only a claim.. however.. I can agree with it.
Sorry but I've got to ask.

What in the heck is the 'spiritual form' of zero?
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  #524  
Old 27.08.2009, 16:33
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Re: Religious Musings

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Sorry but I've got to ask.

What in the heck is the 'spiritual form' of zero?
It wasnt me! (Shaggy)

Ask Sorensen.. I only reposted it.
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  #525  
Old 27.08.2009, 16:37
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Re: Religious Musings

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Addition to above:

And Muhammad (pbuh) was also able to choose the scientifically correct logic and put that into Quran and reject the false ones.
This is getting a bit complex here. What scientific logic was put in the Quran please and on what scientific criteria did he determine correct and false logic ?
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  #526  
Old 27.08.2009, 16:41
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Re: Religious Musings

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It wasnt me! (Shaggy)

Ask Sorensen.. I only reposted it.
Sorry - it's just that since you said you agreed with this claim, I thought you would be able to explain what the claim is about.

My mistake then, I guess.
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  #527  
Old 27.08.2009, 16:45
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Re: Religious Musings

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Sorry - it's just that since you said you agreed with this claim, I thought you would be able to explain what the claim is about.

My mistake then, I guess.
Ohhh.. I only said "However... I can agree with it"

In other words I give up

But yes... I had the same question about Spiritual Zero... like it has existed deep inside one's soul perhaps
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  #528  
Old 27.08.2009, 16:49
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Re: Religious Musings

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This is getting a bit complex here. What scientific logic was put in the Quran please and on what scientific criteria did he determine correct and false logic ?

its been discussed earlier try finding more


and some basic law of physics
The universe originated from smoke.

the big bang theory, its mentioned in quran

leech shape of embryo mentioned in quran
What forms in the embryo first, the muscles or the bones?

Moon's S-shaped orbit around earth is shaped like a branch of a date tree, mentioned in the Noble Quran and confirmed by Science!

Moon is mentioned 28 times in the Noble Quran, exactly as the number of times and phases it appears to earth!

The Geological Miracle in Noble Verses 30:2-5 (the place where the Romans were defeated).

If the Noble Quran says the earth is "egg-shaped" through a Notion, then why couldn't Prophet Muhammad just say it clear in plain Arabic?

Mountains prevent the earth from shaking while rotating around its own axle

Honey was proven to be a healing medicine for humans. we have a complete chapter regarding honey

The Universe is "expanding" according to the Noble Quran. Scientists already proved this claim to be true.

there are many more
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  #529  
Old 27.08.2009, 16:51
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Re: Religious Musings

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Let me take you by the hand and introduce you the wikipedia
Because you're incapable of explaining it yourself? I want to know your response, not what looks to be a heavily biased wiki page. I clicked through to the page on transitional fossils and I'm sorry, but pointing at an animal and saying that is the missing link between fish and amphibian or horse and Giraffe is nonsense. Given the huge turnover of species (150 species become extinct each day) its possible, indeed likely that these are discrete species, but the only way to really find out would be to examine their DNA.

Its been my observation that every time an earnest objection is raised, the theory becomes slightly modified to rebutt said objection e.g. No no, evolution is not linear, but rather branched like a tree. In fact we now believe that organisms exist in stable configurations for long periods of time, then undergo a rapid bout of evolution (hence the paucity of transitional fossils ). Talk about moving the goalposts, or having your cake and eating it. Seriously there is more in common between evolutionists and religionists than you think.
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  #530  
Old 27.08.2009, 16:51
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Re: Religious Musings

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The universe originated from smoke.

Sorry, What?
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  #531  
Old 27.08.2009, 16:51
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Re: Religious Musings

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its been discussed earlier try finding more


and some basic law of physics
The universe originated from smoke.

the big bang theory, its mentioned in quran

leech shape of embryo mentioned in quran
What forms in the embryo first, the muscles or the bones?

Moon's S-shaped orbit around earth is shaped like a branch of a date tree, mentioned in the Noble Quran and confirmed by Science!

Moon is mentioned 28 times in the Noble Quran, exactly as the number of times and phases it appears to earth!

The Geological Miracle in Noble Verses 30:2-5 (the place where the Romans were defeated).

If the Noble Quran says the earth is "egg-shaped" through a Notion, then why couldn't Prophet Muhammad just say it clear in plain Arabic?

Mountains prevent the earth from shaking while rotating around its own axle

Honey was proven to be a healing medicine for humans. we have a complete chapter regarding honey

The Universe is "expanding" according to the Noble Quran. Scientists already proved this claim to be true.

there are many more
Thats pretty impressive. So how did he determine which ones were true and which (such as the earth being flat) were false at the time ? or did he just know ?
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  #532  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:00
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Re: Religious Musings

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Ohhh.. I only said "However... I can agree with it"

In other words I give up
Fair enough.

As far as I know (and keep in mind I'm a mathematician, not a mathematical historian) several ancient cultures developed the concept of zero as a numeral or a placeholder (i.e. a way to distinguish 160 from 106 from 1006000 from 16) more or less independently. I think the earliest documented examples of this are cuneiform tablets from 500-300 BC.

Zero as a number in its own right (e.g. adding zero to other numbers, subtracting a number from itself and getting zero) is a much more recent development - usually credited to the Indians, around 450 AD.

Where anything you could call a 'spiritual form' of either of these comes in, though, is beyond me.
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  #533  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:03
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Re: Religious Musings

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Thats pretty impressive. So how did he determine which ones were true and which (such as the earth being flat) were false at the time ? or did he just know ?
He was not a scientist. He didn't need to coz it's a revelation from God, silly.
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  #534  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:08
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Re: Religious Musings

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He was not a scientist. He didn't need to coz it's a revelation from God, silly.
Of course - God to the rescue again (or Allah I suppose in this case). He does have a habit of producing the goods I must say.
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  #535  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:10
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Re: Religious Musings

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Because you're incapable of explaining it yourself? I want to know your response, not what looks to be a heavily biased wiki page. I clicked through to the page on transitional fossils and I'm sorry, but pointing at an animal and saying that is the missing link between fish and amphibian or horse and Giraffe is nonsense. Given the huge turnover of species (150 species become extinct each day) its possible, indeed likely that these are discrete species, but the only way to really find out would be to examine their DNA.

Its been my observation that every time an earnest objection is raised, the theory becomes slightly modified to rebutt said objection e.g. No no, evolution is not linear, but rather branched like a tree. In fact we now believe that organisms exist in stable configurations for long periods of time, then undergo a rapid bout of evolution (hence the paucity of transitional fossils ). Talk about moving the goalposts, or having your cake and eating it. Seriously there is more in common between evolutionists and religionists than you think.
Isn't that the process of science? the theory is constantly revised and refined according to the evidence.

Rather with religion, the evidence is redefined, or wild explanations given for them to fit an unchangeable dogma.
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  #536  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:12
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Re: Religious Musings

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What ever happened to Freemasonery?
Is this considered to be a religion too?
Where have they gone? Do they still exist?
A requirement of induction into Freemasonry is that the person has a monotheistic religion.



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its been discussed earlier try finding more

and some basic law of physics
The universe originated from smoke.

the big bang theory

The way you put it reminds me of how a surfer dude friend explained life. Except, I would consider his the Big Bong Theory.
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  #537  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:13
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Re: Religious Musings

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Fair enough.

As far as I know (and keep in mind I'm a mathematician, not a mathematical historian) several ancient cultures developed the concept of zero as a numeral or a placeholder (i.e. a way to distinguish 160 from 106 from 1006000 from 16) more or less independently. I think the earliest documented examples of this are cuneiform tablets from 500-300 BC.

Zero as a number in its own right (e.g. adding zero to other numbers, subtracting a number from itself and getting zero) is a much more recent development - usually credited to the Indians, around 450 AD.

Where anything you could call a 'spiritual form' of either of these comes in, though, is beyond me.
Well Zero existed the Day Earth was Created (read Evolved)... same as Gravity existed... Newton only discovered or defined it.

0 existed... so did the other numbers but in complex forms (Greek Numbers) ... numbers in their current form as well as Arithmetic and Algebra was invented and introduced by Arabs.
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  #538  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:14
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Re: Religious Musings

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What about the fossil record? Apart from a few isolated examples, It completely fails to record the existance of transitional forms in any significant number. Its true we haven't unearthed everything, and certain organism don't leave behind fossilised remains. However what we do have in the fish and invertebrate categories gives us enough to study, and when you do, you won't see this gradual shift in species, but rather discrete step changes. Its like a species is there one minute, gone the next. How do you explain that?
Is it reasonable to assume that each little variation will be fossilised? Not only is it lucky we get fossils at all, through probability alone, it's more likely that the most prosperous species would be the ones preserved, simply because there are so many more of them.
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  #539  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:16
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Re: Religious Musings

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Well Zero existed the Day Earth was Created (read Evolved)... same as Gravity existed... Newton only discovered or defied it.

0 existed... so did the other numbers but in complex forms (Greek Numbers) ... numbers in their current form as well as Arithmetic and Algebra was invented and introduced by Arabs.
Dervaish your losing the plot. Look at your own sentences..

1. Zero existed the day the earth was created.. Newton only discovered it.
2. Zero existed so did other numbers.
3. Numbers in their current form were invented by the Arabs.

So hold on, if Newton discovered it its not really a discovery because it 'already existed' but Numbers in their current form were invented by the arabs and didnt exist before this ?
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  #540  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:17
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Re: Religious Musings

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Isn't that the process of science? the theory is constantly revised and refined according to the evidence.

Rather with religion, the evidence is redefined, or wild explanations given for them to fit an unchangeable dogma.
Religious Sciences follow that same principle ... constantly Revised and Refined according to Evidence (read criticism)
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