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  #541  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:22
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Re: Religious Musings

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Ouuch! I can't live that one down. I make lot of mistakes but that was an honest slip

Let him who is without sin cast the first Stone

Dude, that Brokeback Mountain interlude.... it was ONLY a joke.
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  #542  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:24
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Re: Religious Musings

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Dervaish your losing the plot. Look at your own sentences..

1. Zero existed the day the earth was created.. Newton only discovered it.
2. Zero existed so did other numbers.
3. Numbers in their current form were invented by the Arabs.

So hold on, if Newton discovered it its not really a discovery because it 'already existed' but Numbers in their current form were invented by the arabs and didnt exist before this ?
Please... Sue me... Honestly!
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  #543  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:26
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Re: Religious Musings

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Please... Sue me... Honestly!
rhubarb rhubarb RHUBARB tennis cat honey horse horse ALLAH religion SCIENCE computer donkey religion BELIEVE BELIEVE rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb
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  #544  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:28
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Re: Religious Musings

The idea that science is the dichotomy of religion is a farce. Isn't it like saying mechanics can't be musicians at the same time, or something like that?
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  #545  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:34
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Re: Religious Musings

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Dervaish your losing the plot. Look at your own sentences..

1. Zero existed the day the earth was created.. Newton only discovered it.
2. Zero existed so did other numbers.
3. Numbers in their current form were invented by the Arabs.

So hold on, if Newton discovered it its not really a discovery because it 'already existed' but Numbers in their current form were invented by the arabs and didnt exist before this ?
No Offence Buddy... I truly feel like You dont quite understand English or even the concept... let alone having objective disagreement.

e.g.

1. Zero existed the day the earth was created.. Newton only discovered it.

Where did I say that? Newton discovered Gravity, I said.. and it existed even before he had "discovered" it
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  #546  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:36
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Re: Religious Musings

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Well Zero existed the Day Earth was Created (read Evolved)... same as Gravity existed... Newton only discovered or defied it.

0 existed... so did the other numbers but in complex forms (Greek Numbers) ... numbers in their current form as well as Arithmetic and Algebra was invented and introduced by Arabs.
The problem here is - the problems here are - that "zero" and "nothing" are not the same; that a number and a numeral are not the same; and that numbers do not "exist" (even today) in the same sense gravity does.

Last one first. We can't verify their effect on stuff, right, like we can with gravity? So they are not part of physical reality, but an abstraction which "exists" only in the minds of those perceiving it. If there were no humans (or other sentient beings) there would be no numbers.

So how was there zero before humans then? (Well, you could say that God understands mathematics, so there was zero in the mind of God. Okay. If you go that route, God understands internal combustion engines too. Have those always existed since the beginning of the universe?)

Next problem: when you say "numbers in their current form" you are talking about numerals, about ways of writing numbers. Two is two whether you write it as 10 (in binary) or 2 (in decimal) or II (in Roman numerals.) I agree that Arabic numerals are a system invented by Arabs - but it's important to make the distinction between numbers and numerals. As I said above, "zero" as a number and "zero" as a numeral came into being (or were discovered, if you like) several centuries apart.

Back to the first one, that "zero" and "nothing" are not the same concept. For example, if you haven't taken a course, you have no grade in that course. If you have taken it and done quite poorly, you might have a grade of zero in the course - but that's not the same thing as having no grade! That's a fairly simplistic example but I'm too tired to think of anything more profound just now.


(Another problem is that "complex" is a bit of a reserved word in mathematics - the Greeks knew nothing about "complex numbers" or "numbers in complex form" - but I'll let that pass...)
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  #547  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:41
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Re: Religious Musings

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No Offence Buddy... I truly feel like You dont quite understand English or even the concept... let alone having objective disagreement.

e.g.

1. Zero existed the day the earth was created.. Newton only discovered it.

Where did I say that? Newton discovered Gravity, I said.. and it existed even before he had "discovered" it
You said: 'Well Zero existed the Day Earth was Created (read Evolved)... same as Gravity existed... Newton only discovered or defined it'

given that I am unaware who discovered gravity or the number zero, in the above sentence, using your superior knowledge of english that you have just chastised me about, explain why that sentence does not imply that zero was discovered by Newton and only implies that Gravity was.

I await a sensible and logical answer and not some shite about sue me please.
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  #548  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:45
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Re: Religious Musings

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The problem here is - the problems here are - that "zero" and "nothing" are not the same; that a number and a numeral are not the same; and that numbers do not "exist" (even today) in the same sense gravity does.

Last one first. We can't verify their effect on stuff, right, like we can with gravity? So they are not part of physical reality, but an abstraction which "exists" only in the minds of those perceiving it. If there were no humans (or other sentient beings) there would be no numbers.

So how was there zero before humans then? (Well, you could say that God understands mathematics, so there was zero in the mind of God. Okay. If you go that route, God understands internal combustion engines too. Have those always existed since the beginning of the universe?)

Next problem: when you say "numbers in their current form" you are talking about numerals, about ways of writing numbers. Two is two whether you write it as 10 (in binary) or 2 (in decimal) or II (in Roman numerals.) I agree that Arabic numerals are a system invented by Arabs - but it's important to make the distinction between numbers and numerals. As I said above, "zero" as a number and "zero" as a numeral came into being (or were discovered, if you like) several centuries apart.

Back to the first one, that "zero" and "nothing" are not the same concept. For example, if you haven't taken a course, you have no grade in that course. If you have taken it and done quite poorly, you might have a grade of zero in the course - but that's not the same thing as having no grade! That's a fairly simplistic example but I'm too tired to think of anything more profound just now.


(Another problem is that "complex" is a bit of a reserved word in mathematics - the Greeks knew nothing about "complex numbers" or "numbers in complex form" - but I'll let that pass...)
Well.. sorry, I meant Zero not as Numeral but as Nothing.. my mistake.

BTW, I didnt say zero existed before Humans... First day since the world began.. for me.. was when first human appeared (but I can understand you can have a different perspective)

Point taken for "Complex" numbers... I was only meaning complexity in writing... e.g. in modern numerals we can write 9'568'965.08 quite easily but was very difficult in Roman numerals.
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  #549  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:47
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Re: Religious Musings

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You said: 'Well Zero existed the Day Earth was Created (read Evolved)... same as Gravity existed... Newton only discovered or defined it'

given that I am unaware who discovered gravity or the number zero, in the above sentence, using your superior knowledge of english that you have just chastised me about, explain why that sentence does not imply that zero was discovered by Newton and only implies that Gravity was.

I await a sensible and logical answer and not some shite about sue me please.
I guess You're right... Im sorry for the confusion.
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  #550  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:51
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Re: Religious Musings

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Sorry but I've got to ask.

What in the heck is the 'spiritual form' of zero?

It is the sound of no hands clapping.
.
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  #551  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:51
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Re: Religious Musings

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I guess You're right... Im sorry for the confusion.
and I apologize about my fairly basic reading error, of course you did not imply zero was discovered by newton upon re-reading it.
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  #552  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:53
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Re: Religious Musings

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and I apologize about my fairly basic reading error, of course you did not imply zero was discovered by newton upon re-reading it.
Hey dont do that to me now... its TORTURE

But its ok... I really appreciate you saying that.
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  #553  
Old 27.08.2009, 17:56
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Re: Religious Musings

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It is the sound of no hands clapping.
.
Your Kung Fu is definitely better than mine..
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  #554  
Old 27.08.2009, 18:04
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Re: Religious Musings

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Your Kung Fu is definitely better than mine..
Tomorrow we discuss the sound of sqrt(-1) hands clapping.
.
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  #555  
Old 27.08.2009, 19:09
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Re: Religious Musings

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What about the fossil record? Apart from a few isolated examples, It completely fails to record the existance of transitional forms in any significant number. Its true we haven't unearthed everything, and certain organism don't leave behind fossilised remains. However what we do have in the fish and invertebrate categories gives us enough to study, and when you do, you won't see this gradual shift in species, but rather discrete step changes. Its like a species is there one minute, gone the next. How do you explain that?
Since this box has been reopened, can I point you to a beautiful example of evolution where all the intermediate stages are still around to see.

I note a few repeat offenders on this topic...

The truth about evolution and creationism
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  #556  
Old 27.08.2009, 20:07
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Re: Religious Musings

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There sure is an agenda of keeping creationism out of science classes. Rightly so, because it is not science (you say it is religion yourself), you cannot set up can experiment that supports a creationist theory.

As opposed to this, evolution _is_ recreated in the lab, and there are attempts (so far unsuccessful) to create life from non-life. It has not been done yet, but it could in principle be doable.

PS: I am aware that creationists come in several flavours - I find the young-earth variety quite hilarious.

I can agree with that. TOE and Creationism are as different as apples and oranges. TOE is scientific theory, while Creationism is a subject for humanities/religion.

As for how Science is taught; I don't see how or why anyone would try to legislate how teachers teach students. A teacher should be able to use whatever range of tools they want to teach. But I do agree TOE and Creationism should not be mixed up as the same topic.

Could you explain the value of teaching TOE? What benefits have come out of it? And what do you see are the problems of teaching Creationism as a Humanities/Religion course?

As for the young earth creationists, are those the ones who believe man co-existed with dinosaurs? Yes, that is very misguided.
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  #557  
Old 27.08.2009, 20:23
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Re: Religious Musings

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Could you explain the value of teaching TOE? What benefits have come out of it? And what do you see are the problems of teaching Creationism as a Humanities/Religion course?
The value is that you are teaching science, otherwise what's the point of teaching any science at all? It's like trying to leave sex out of biology class.
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Old 27.08.2009, 20:35
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Re: Religious Musings

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The value is that you are teaching science, otherwise what's the point of teaching any science at all? It's like trying to leave sex out of biology class.
Thanks for the responses. What I wanted to hear are concrete practical benefits that have come out of teaching TOE science. A response from Sorensen would be great.
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  #559  
Old 27.08.2009, 20:49
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Re: Religious Musings

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As for how Science is taught; I don't see how or why anyone would try to legislate how teachers teach students. A teacher should be able to use whatever range of tools they want to teach. But I do agree TOE and Creationism should not be mixed up as the same topic.

Could you explain the value of teaching TOE? What benefits have come out of it? And what do you see are the problems of teaching Creationism as a Humanities/Religion course?
.
you say 'range of tools' as if all ideas are equally valid. evolution is well documented by the fossil record, genetics, geographical distribution, etc., and papers about evolution are published in peer reviewed scientific journals. creationist papers are not found in peer reviewed journals because there is no evidence for it and its not science. of course creationists claim that there is a conspiracy against them rather than considering that perhaps their idea has no value. a science curriculum should contain science, rather than teaching children that everything in biology is here because magic did it.

the main benefit of understanding evolution is not only understanding how and why we are all here and that all plants and animals are related to each other but also that believing in a theory is not a matter of personal preference, but of looking at the evidence and seeing what the facts suggest, rather than believing something because of tradition, revelation, or authority (otherwise known as critical thinking).
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  #560  
Old 27.08.2009, 20:51
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Re: Religious Musings

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Thanks for the responses. What I wanted to hear are concrete practical benefits that have come out of teaching TOE science. A response from Sorensen would be great.
It prepares you for a field in modern medicine, biology, zoology and the general advencement of knowldge. Just like teaching physics prepares them for a role in physics based fields.

What are the benefits of astronomy? that offends geocentrists and young earth creationists, so let's leave that out too.
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