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  #561  
Old 27.08.2009, 20:52
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Re: Religious Musings

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What are the benefits of astronomy? that offends geocentrists and young earth creationists, so let's leave that out too.
not to mention the flat earth society!
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  #562  
Old 27.08.2009, 21:20
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Re: Religious Musings

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It prepares you for a field in modern medicine, biology, zoology and the general advencement of knowldge. Just like teaching physics prepares them for a role in physics based fields.

Prepares you how? How does TOE directly affect the teaching of those fields? And how does teaching Creationism interfere with this effort?

What EXACTLY is attributable to TOE?


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What are the benefits of astronomy? that offends geocentrists and young earth creationists, so let's leave that out too.

By the way, the political rhetoric has bored me long ago. Let's see if we can maintain a level headed discussion without the slants.
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  #563  
Old 27.08.2009, 21:30
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Re: Religious Musings

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you say 'range of tools' as if all ideas are equally valid.

In the course of teaching, all ideas are valid to use. This should also be the approach in Science. A teacher should be able to use whatever they want. This shouldn't be determined by a radical fringe group.
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  #564  
Old 27.08.2009, 21:49
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Re: Religious Musings

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In the course of teaching, all ideas are valid to use. This should also be the approach in Science. A teacher should be able to use whatever they want. This shouldn't be determined by a radical fringe group.
Yes, I believe you once said that illness could be caused by the sin of an ancestor, is that a valid idea to be teaching potential doctors? Or perhaps a more valid idea would be that some genetic traits and ilnnesses can be inherited.

I'll drop the rhetoric when you drop the faux naivety.
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  #565  
Old 27.08.2009, 21:54
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Re: Religious Musings

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Thanks for the responses. What I wanted to hear are concrete practical benefits that have come out of teaching TOE science. A response from Sorensen would be great.
Apart from giving a understanding of the current standing of biology and medicine, it can be used to explain why you should always finish that course of antibiotics, even if you feel ok. And similarly, why you should not insist on antibiotics for a virus. Can't get more practical than that.

It can give an understanding of how closely related humanity actually is - to talk of races is rubbish.

Physics, chemistry or biology is not of much practical use for the majority of people - I still think it should be taught as that is part of what modern society is built on.

Bugger, I said I would not write any more in this thread...
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Old 27.08.2009, 22:08
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Re: Religious Musings

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Apart from giving a understanding of the current standing of biology and medicine, it can be used to explain why you should always finish that course of antibiotics, even if you feel ok. And similarly, why you should not insist on antibiotics for a virus. Can't get more practical than that.

It can give an understanding of how closely related humanity actually is - to talk of races is rubbish.

Physics, chemistry or biology is not of much practical use for the majority of people - I still think it should be taught as that is part of what modern society is built on.
...

Well these are already taught - Science. But how is this germaine to TOE?


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Bugger, I said I would not write any more in this thread...
Sorry for calling you out specifically. Your posts are quite intelligible, and shout through the pile of hysterics.
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  #567  
Old 27.08.2009, 22:24
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Re: Religious Musings

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Yes, I believe you once said that illness could be caused by the sin of an ancestor, is that a valid idea to be teaching potential doctors? Or perhaps a more valid idea would be that some genetic traits and ilnnesses can be inherited.

I'll drop the rhetoric when you drop the faux naivety.

I think you are confusing a philosophical statement with a medical prescription.

All problems are caused by the sins of our ancestors.
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  #568  
Old 27.08.2009, 23:14
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Re: Religious Musings

Alright Church. Time for a sing song





Last edited by Phos; 27.08.2009 at 23:38.
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  #569  
Old 27.08.2009, 23:29
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Re: Religious Musings

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In the course of teaching, all ideas are valid to use. This should also be the approach in Science. A teacher should be able to use whatever they want. This shouldn't be determined by a radical fringe group.
if "all ideas are valid to use", should we then also teach the stork theory of human reproduction in science class? how about intelligent falling instead of gravity?

who is the "radical fringe group" you allude to? is it the entire scientific community (minus a couple of crackpots) who believe evolution in full?
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  #570  
Old 27.08.2009, 23:29
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Re: Religious Musings

---Quote (Originally by Sorensen)--- There sure is an agenda of keeping creationism out of science classes. Rightly so, because it is not science (you say it is religion yourself), you cannot set up can experiment that supports a creationist theory. As opposed to this, evolution _is_ recreated in the lab, and there are attempts (so far unsuccessful) to create life from non-life. It has not been done yet, but it could in principle be doable. PS: I am aware that creationists come in several flavours - I find the young-earth variety quite hilarious. ---End Quote---

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I can agree with that. TOE and Creationism are as different as apples and oranges. TOE is scientific theory, while Creationism is a subject for humanities/religion. As for how Science is taught. I don't see how or why anyone would try to legislate how teachers teach students. A teacher should be able to use whatever range of tools they want to teach. Could you explain the value of teaching TOE? What benefits have come out of it? And what do you see are the problems of teaching Creationism as a Humanities/Religion course? As for the young earth creationists, are those the ones who believe man co-existed with dinosaurs? Yes, that is very misguided.
whe I taught in elementary/middle in Switzerland or the UK, it was not a problem. Here is the US it is a major problem. it depends on the parents on the school board. the main problem comes with Earth Science. It is best to just stick to the script. However invariably students will ask what you think. I refuse to tell them as you can get fired!
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  #571  
Old 27.08.2009, 23:31
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Re: Religious Musings

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I think you are confusing a philosophical statement with a medical prescription.

All problems are caused by the sins of our ancestors.
So, the study of ancestry would be important, no?
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  #572  
Old 27.08.2009, 23:48
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Re: Religious Musings

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So, the study of ancestry would be important, no?
Sure. It's called history.
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  #573  
Old 27.08.2009, 23:54
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Re: Religious Musings

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Sure. It's called history.
I can't believe you can actually say that in this context, but even so, if you want an accurate representation of history, based on evidence, the theory of evolution would still come into it.
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  #574  
Old 27.08.2009, 23:57
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Re: Religious Musings

[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Verena/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]97 – Where (and How) Evolution Is Taught In the US


http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/04/03/97-%E2%80%93-where-and-how-evolution-is-taught-in-the-us/

Filed under: Uncategorized — strangemaps @ 11:24 am



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Scientists generally accept the theory of evolution as the back-story of how animal species (including humans) came into being over a period of several billion years. Religious literalists maintain their belief in creation, as laid down in the Bible: God made the earth and all that is on it (including humans, after His own image) in one week, a couple of thousand years ago.
These are the extreme positions in a debate that has been raging for years now in the United States, and more particularly in the school system. Since each state can determine what should be in the local schools’ curriculum, the teaching of evolution and/or creation differs throughout the country. Yet contrary to what one might think, it’s not so that creation is taught in the Bible Belt states (in the South), and evolution in more liberal states (everywhere else).
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  #575  
Old 28.08.2009, 00:28
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Re: Religious Musings

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I can't believe you can actually say that in this context, but even so, if you want an accurate representation of history, based on evidence, the theory of evolution would still come into it.

Dude, you're obsessed with the Theory of Evolution.

There are a LOT of other more interesting scientific theories than TOE. Tell me why atheists are not as keen to push these into the minds of young children:

Quantum Entanglement
The idea that a particle on one side of the universe simultaneously behave the same as another particle on the other side of the universe.

Multiverse
The idea that there are multiple possible universes that comprise reality.

Copenhagen Interpretation
The idea that particles of matter behave as waves of probability. The act of observing them effect their behavior.

I'll tell you why. It's because this kind of science doesn't support your atheist viewpoint.

Of all the possible wonders one can instill in a child, you are obsessed with teaching children that they are accidental animals who are not much more than bio-chemical reactions. How much duller can a person be than that?

Rest assured that there are many of us who go to extreme measures to counter-act the garbage educational institutions try to instill in our children. We let our children know that their consciousness, imaginations and personalities are gifts and expressions of a living God.

It just so happens I was reading a portion of an Ayn Rand novel that reminds me of this:

"Sweep aside those parasites of subsidized classrooms, who live on the profits of the mind of others and proclaim that man needs no morality, no values, no code of behavior. They, who pose as scientists and claim that man is only an animal, do not grant him inclusion in the law of existence they have granted to the lowest of insects. They recognize that every living species has a way of survival demanded by its nature, they do not claim that a fish can live out of water or that a dog can live without its sense of smell–but man, they claim, the most complex of beings, man can survive in any way whatever, man has no identity, no nature, and there's in any way whatever, and there's no practical reason why he cannot live with his means of survival destroyed, with his mind throttled and placed at the disposal of any orders they might care to issue."

Last edited by Phos; 28.08.2009 at 00:44.
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  #576  
Old 28.08.2009, 02:49
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Re: Religious Musings

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Of all the possible wonders one can instill in a child, you are obsessed with teaching children that they are accidental animals who are not much more than bio-chemical reactions. How much duller can a person be than that?

Rest assured that there are many of us who go to extreme measures to counter-act the garbage educational institutions try to instill in our children. We let our children know that their consciousness, imaginations and personalities are gifts and expressions of a living God.

It just so happens I was reading a portion of an Ayn Rand novel that reminds me of this:

"Sweep aside those parasites of subsidized classrooms, who live on the profits of the mind of others and proclaim that man needs no morality, no values, no code of behavior. They, who pose as scientists and claim that man is only an animal, do not grant him inclusion in the law of existence they have granted to the lowest of insects. They recognize that every living species has a way of survival demanded by its nature, they do not claim that a fish can live out of water or that a dog can live without its sense of smell–but man, they claim, the most complex of beings, man can survive in any way whatever, man has no identity, no nature, and there's in any way whatever, and there's no practical reason why he cannot live with his means of survival destroyed, with his mind throttled and placed at the disposal of any orders they might care to issue."
I don't think that there is anything dull about being a biochemical reaction, I would dare to venture that a majority of births are accidental and thank goodness for that. It would be a very boring world if everything created was the result of some great master plan.

Animals are not dull either, my cat looks at me typing with disdain as if to say that I am pretty boring animal.

If you think that teachers fill children's minds with garbage, you have the right to do something about it.

In fact I try to get children to think for themselves, not tell them how to think. That is one reason that I will not tell them about my belief in God, I believe but cannot prove there is a God. It is up to each child to discover their own idea of God and wonder of the world. To me God is love, I encourage them to give love and receive love.

I see in my children mannerisms, gestures and expressions that are from relatives that they have never met or not seen for years. Whether I like those mannerisms or not, they form part of their personalities. Who am I to decide which traits were a gift from God and which not? To me they are all gifts, you just have to figure out how best to use them.

There are children who have been raised in isolation, likethe russian children raised by dogs. They have developmental delays in speech etc. bt they still have personalities, are still capable of showlove, affection, anger etc. they have some kind of moral code even though they have been devoid of human contact.

I am the product of subsidized state run institution, well when I went to school, I pretty much raised myself, I didn't have any of the extreme measure that you speak of to counteract garbage and in retrospect Idon't think that I needed them. I was and still am an animal, childbirth reminds of that.
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  #577  
Old 28.08.2009, 08:36
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Re: Religious Musings

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Dude, you're obsessed with the Theoryof Evolution.

There are a LOT of other more interesting scientific theories than TOE.
Thankfully, real science doesn't concern itself with what is more interesting, but what is most likely true.

The theories you posted have their place, but in no way should they be the primary focus of a general science curriculum. There are bigger fish to fry.
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Rest assured that there are many of us who go to extreme measures to counter-act the garbage educational institutions try to instill in our children. We let our children know that their consciousness, imaginations and personalities are gifts and expressions of a living God.
Heh.
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  #578  
Old 28.08.2009, 08:42
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Re: Religious Musings

After 20 pages our religious nuts still haven't figured out what a scientific theory is.. sigh.
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  #579  
Old 28.08.2009, 08:55
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Re: Religious Musings

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Of all the possible wonders one can instill in a child, you are obsessed with teaching children that they are accidental animals who are not much more than bio-chemical reactions. How much duller can a person be than that?
...................

Last edited by sharkey; 28.08.2009 at 09:02. Reason: Scratch that. I'm not going to get involved in another argument on religion with the "faithful"
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Old 28.08.2009, 09:04
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Re: Religious Musings

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I don't think that there is anything dull about being a biochemical reaction,
Is that all you think you really are?



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Animals are not dull either, my cat looks at me typing with disdain as if to say that I am pretty boring animal.

I don't mean dull as in uninteresting, but dull as in mundane. Its the difference between mundane and supernatural.



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There are children who have been raised in isolation, likethe russian children raised by dogs.

Children raised by wolves? I like your range Hoppy.




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After 20 pages our religious nuts still haven't figured out what a scientific theory is.. sigh.

Speak for yourself. I know what a scientific theory is. But more so, I know ulterior motives when I see one.

Last edited by Phos; 28.08.2009 at 09:14.
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