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  #741  
Old 31.08.2009, 14:59
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Re: Religious Musings

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Statistically, yes, i suppose so. If given enough time, every eventuality is likely to come about...(I'd have to defer to someone with a greater knowledge of Mathematical analysis and statistics than myself for that one, though.)

But you are trying to equate the Theory of Evolution to a spontaneous creation of intelligent, sentient beings.

To use your analogy, it would be more like step by step reconstruction of the watch, part after part, eventually leading to a working model... Well, that is my understanding of it...
Yes, if given enough time.. but sometimes you dont have enough time for the eventuality to come about.

Universe has a starting point (Big Bang) and also an end point, when it will collapse back, also the concept of "Heat death of Universe" in Thermodynamics.

So the "probablity" of Life, human, animal, plants, insects etc with it million species... geological composition and minerals inside the Earth, the measure of gravitational pull/force, atmospheric conditions and composition of gases, formation of ozone layer, natural and physical processes necessary for the survival of earth and support of life and eco systems...the Planets and their orbits and setting their revolution velocities and distance from the centre, Sun, and the rotation of the planets in their orbits, creation of day and night and seasons and their being in sync with patterns of human sleep and harvests and agriculture...

I mean you can go on and on... and I can guarantee all computers of the world lined together CANNOT calculate the "possible" combinations of all that, let alone calculate its probability of ONE perfect symmetry and combination coming into place by mere chance!

Its better to think about it at a time when your mind is free... maybe then you would realize.
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  #742  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:00
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Re: Religious Musings

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Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smokeMoreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been as smoke

(The Noble Quran, 41:11-12)
I don't follow the logic, but do you believe the universe was created from smoke?

If so, you obviously don't understand the theory of the Big Bang...
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  #743  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:03
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Re: Religious Musings

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IBut to answer your question, I have not studied Classical Philosophy, so what i think of it, is irrelevant..

Well, that explains it. Then I suggest Aristotle.

I particularly like Aristotle's take on God as the "first cause" of all things in his work on metaphysics.

I also prescribe to his statement: "Yet there is God, though not perhaps the simple and human god conceived by the forgivable anthropomorphism of the adolescent mind". This include the concept atheists try to refute.

Mind you, this is the man who formalized logic.
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  #744  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:05
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Re: Religious Musings

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Yes, if given enough time.. but sometimes you dont have enough time for the eventuality to come about.

Universe has a starting point (Big Bang) and also an end point, when it will collapse back, also the concept of "Heat death of Universe" in Thermodynamics.

So the "probablity" of Life, human, animal, plants, insects etc with it million species... geological composition and minerals inside the Earth, the measure of gravitational pull/force, atmospheric conditions and composition of gases, formation of ozone layer, natural and physical processes necessary for the survival of earth and support of life and eco systems...the Planets and their orbits and setting their revolution velocities and distance from the centre, Sun, and the rotation of the planets in their orbits, creation of day and night and seasons and their being in sync with patterns of human sleep and harvests and agriculture...

I mean you can go on and on... and I can guarantee all computers of the world lined together CANNOT calculate the "possible" combinations of all that, let alone calculate its probability of ONE perfect symmetry and combination coming into place by mere chance!

Its better to think about it at a time when your mind is free... maybe then you would realize.

Oh come on Dervaish.

You are trying to put constraints on a system you don't understand, not to mention the fact that you have parts of it backwards.

This is frankly a stupid statement that pretty much illustrates my point
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their being in sync with patterns of human sleep and harvests and agriculture...[/HTML]

Totally backwards...
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  #745  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:05
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Re: Religious Musings

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Ok, maybe God didnt do it... but then Who or What?

Any process without any control and monitor would surely be random!
Random, to a point. Completely haphazard and without any sort influence of outside elements, no.

Your "shaking up" analogy is kind of lousy to begin with. Shaking up the pieces in itself is not a random act, it is a violent one that impedes the possibility of anything complex being made. Now, if we're talking about something more deliberate, like the metal pieces being put together piece over a long time, like sharkey suggested, then we've got something. But going back to your shaking analogy: if done for long enough and with enough vigor, it'll create a metal ball or pebble. Which a man will trip on one day, falling down, breaking his back, abandoning his lifelong dreams of becoming a football player, and becoming a watch-maker. So yes, you've just made a watch!

It's like people who say that the force of gravity is "perfect" and that any sort of miniscule change would kill everything in the universe. So it must be by design, right? Well, no, not really. In an alternate universe, the force of gravity would be different, and the universe itself would evolve from that point on. You're looking at a finished product and thinking of all the ways it could have gone wrong. And in that case, well, everything's impossible.

Oh dear, I think I've just found God!
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  #746  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:06
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Re: Religious Musings

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A very good example indeed. Although Galileo may have been religious, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo, his work in astronomy was for the benefit of science. An interesting quote from the article:

'Although he tried to remain loyal to the Catholic Church, his adherence to experimental results, and their most honest interpretation, led to a rejection of blind allegiance to authority, both philosophical and religious, in matters of science. In broader terms, this aided the separation of science from both philosophy and religion; a major development in human thought.'

This posturing is typical of the arguments used by religous zealots. Because Galileo happened to be religious then in their eyes everything he did was because of his religion. Which is of course, utter rubbish.
I would not take analysis from Wikipedia as Gospel Truth... but have you not heard Philosophy being Mother of all Sciences?

I am at a loss here, from Christian perspective, maybe Phos can help with that.

But in Muslim Faith learning and Knowledge is as important as believing in God. The very first word revealed to Prophet was "Read".. "Iqra" in Arabic... so for its a difficult to see separation of Science from Religion.
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  #747  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:09
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Re: Religious Musings

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I would not take analysis from Wikipedia as Gospel Truth... but have you not heard Philosophy being Mother of all Sciences?

I am at a loss here, from Christian perspective, maybe Phos can help with that.

But in Muslim Faith learning and Knowledge is as important as believing in God. The very first word revealed to Prophet was "Read".. "Iqra" in Arabic... so for its a difficult to see separation of Science from Religion.
and there you go. neatly sliding out of the corner you are backed into by moving to another wild generalization.

Bye for now.
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  #748  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:10
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Re: Religious Musings

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Oh come on Dervaish.

You are trying to put constraints on a system you don't understand, not to mention the fact that you have parts of it backwards.

This is frankly a stupid statement that pretty much illustrates my point
[html]
their being in sync with patterns of human sleep and harvests and agriculture...[/html]

Totally backwards...
Maybe the statements were nto very well thougt out, as Im at work but I am hoping you got the point Im trying to make.

How come its backwards, mind elaborating?
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  #749  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:16
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Re: Religious Musings

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Maybe the statements were nto very well thougt out, as Im at work but I am hoping you got the point Im trying to make.

How come its backwards, mind elaborating?
Seasons, day/night cycles didn't just line up with mans sleep cycle, or agriculture... Agriculture, and man's cycles evolved around the seasons.

Anyway, I'm following Mike's lead.

I made the mistake of getting sucked back into this retarded debate.
As I said it before, it's impossible to have a civil debate based on logic and reason with the faithful, because faith is devoid of both.

Good day to you...
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  #750  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:17
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Re: Religious Musings

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I particularly like Aristotle's take on God as the "first cause" of all things in his work on metaphysics.

I also prescribe to his statement: "Yet there is God, though not perhaps the simple and human god conceived by the forgivable anthropomorphism of the adolescent mind". This include the concept atheists try to refute.

Mind you, this is the man who formalized logic.
Surprisingly good post there Phos. But that's precisely my problem with the bible or christianity. The god drawn up there reeks too much of an ill thought out concept/character made up by an adolescent mind(mental development, not age). Jealous, cruel yet all-loving.. You get the picture, the biblical god is just a tad too much human for me. Now if you say there is a higher being with no attention deficit disorder, no petty human character faults who am I to argue with you ? I have no idea if there is such a higher being, and I wouldn't dare arguing against it, as I simply don't know and can't discredit the concept. Now I love and have studied a bit of philosophy myself, and as an agnostic I have no beef with Aristitle or anyone else who approaches the subject with an open mind and good arguments and yet thinks there is a god.
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  #751  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:18
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Re: Religious Musings

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Random, to a point. Completely haphazard and without any sort influence of outside elements, no.

Your "shaking up" analogy is kind of lousy to begin with. Shaking up the pieces in itself is not a random act, it is a violent one that impedes the possibility of anything complex being made. Now, if we're talking about something more deliberate, like the metal pieces being put together piece over a long time, like sharkey suggested, then we've got something. But going back to your shaking analogy: if done for long enough and with enough vigor, it'll create a metal ball or pebble. Which a man will trip on one day, falling down, breaking his back, abandoning his lifelong dreams of becoming a football player, and becoming a watch-maker. So yes, you've just made a watch!

It's like people who say that the force of gravity is "perfect" and that any sort of miniscule change would kill everything in the universe. So it must be by design, right? Well, no, not really. In an alternate universe, the force of gravity would be different, and the universe itself would evolve from that point on. You're looking at a finished product and thinking of all the ways it could have gone wrong. And in that case, well, everything's impossible.

Oh dear, I think I've just found God!
I like the joke, about footballer player turning to be a watch-maker...

From that point on there are as many "chances" of things evolving or regressing back to destruction... Its an assumption that things (without a Mastermind) would always go progressive.

Its like the idea that, the first beings with their deforming gills and work-in-progress legs and skin etc stayed like in that semi developed form for trillion and trillion of years (as Evolution is a very slow process) and yet managed to survive.

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Seasons, day/night cycles didn't just line up with mans sleep cycle, or agriculture... Agriculture, and man's cycles evolved around the seasons.

Anyway, I'm following Mike's lead.

I made the mistake of getting sucked back into this retarded debate.
As I said it before, it's impossible to have a civil debate based on logic and reason with the faithful, because faith is devoid of both.


Good day to you...

I surely didnt sent an invite to you or Mike or anyone, did I?

Im trying to learn, you're trying to prove something right/wrong... trouble is with your attitude not Me.

You ask a question and you get a answer, you fine tune for confusions and clarifications and thats it, while you seem to be hell bent on proving Faith and Faithful devoid of logic and reason.

Good day to you too!

Last edited by vwild1; 09.02.2010 at 21:32. Reason: Merging 2 successive posts into 1
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  #752  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:24
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Re: Religious Musings

Not really Dervaish. You just post random ill-thought out concepts and scientific missunderstandings around without bothering to inform yourself. People correct you and then you just restate what you said before. It can get a bit tiring I guess.
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  #753  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:30
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Re: Religious Musings

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A very good example indeed. Although Galileo may have been religious, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo, his work in astronomy was for the benefit of science. An interesting quote from the article:
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I am at a loss here, from Christian perspective, maybe Phos can help with that.
No, MikeB is making it up. Galileo was a devote Christian. He found evidence in support of Copernicus that the universe did not revolve around the earth. In the typical ignorance and arrogance of men, they persecuted him. But despite that, he stayed loyal to his faith.


He often ruminated on the idealized design of creation:
"God could have made birds with bones of massive gold, with veins full of molten silver, with flesh heavier than lead and with tiny wings . . . He could have made fish heavier than lead, and thus twelve times heavier than water, but He has wished to make the former of bone, flesh, and feathers that are light enough, and the latter as heavier than water, to teach us that He rejoices in simplicity and facility.”

This is one of the last things he wrote in his life:
"To the Lord; whom I worship and thank
That governs the heavens with His eyelid
To Him I return tired, but full of living"
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  #754  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:33
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Re: Religious Musings

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Not really Dervaish. You just post random ill-thought out concepts and scientific missunderstandings around without bothering to inform yourself. People correct you and then you just restate what you said before. It can get a bit tiring I guess.
You are rite 100% .. but AGAIN I am not asking you or anyone to be my Mentor or Teacher now am I?

You dont like what I say, you move on... there are many posting here plus many other threads, find one that is upto your High Logical standards

No hard feelings, just being straight up.

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No, MikeB is making it up. Galileo was a devote Christian. He found evidence in support of Copernicus that the universe did not revolve around the earth. In the typical ignorance and arrogance of men, they persecuted him. But despite that, he stayed loyal to his faith.


He often ruminated on the idealized design of creation:
"God could have made birds with bones of massive gold, with veins full of molten silver, with flesh heavier than lead and with tiny wings . . . He could have made fish heavier than lead, and thus twelve times heavier than water, but He has wished to make the former of bone, flesh, and feathers that are light enough, and the latter as heavier than water, to teach us that He rejoices in simplicity and facility.”

This is one of the last things he wrote in his life:
"To the Lord; whom I worship and thank
That governs the heavens with His eyelid
To Him I return tired, but full of living"
Thank you Phos, for pointing that out.

But as I said before, it should be about learning and if someone is only about "winning" by any means necessary, then its fine by me, Good luck to them.

Last edited by vwild1; 09.02.2010 at 21:31. Reason: Merging 2 successive posts into 1
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  #755  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:36
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Re: Religious Musings

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Surprisingly good post there Phos. But that's precisely my problem with the bible or christianity. The god drawn up there reeks too much of an ill thought out concept/character made up by an adolescent mind(mental development, not age). Jealous, cruel yet all-loving.. You get the picture, the biblical god is just a tad too much human for me. Now if you say there is a higher being with no attention deficit disorder, no petty human character faults who am I to argue with you ? I have no idea if there is such a higher being, and I wouldn't dare arguing against it, as I simply don't know and can't discredit the concept. Now I love and have studied a bit of philosophy myself, and as an agnostic I have no beef with Aristitle or anyone else who approaches the subject with an open mind and good arguments and yet thinks there is a god.

Simon_CH, I think you missed a very crucial point about what believers believe. We don't imagine God.

Have you ever heard of the 10 Commandments? Do you know what the first commandment is?

Commandment #1: Do not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or earth beneath that we bow down to and worship.

This includes any mental imagery or preconceptions about God. You do that, as well as all the other atheists clowns on here who think they already know what they are talking about. Believers do NOT do that.

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Thank you Phos, for pointing that out.

But as I said before, it should be about learning and if someone is only about "winning" by any means necessary, then its fine by me, Good luck to them.

yw.

Yeah, most of them are basically clowning and trolling without thinking. They're just playing it like a pee contest. They're just arguing for argument's sake. I consider it as a sign of their insecurity.

Last edited by vwild1; 09.02.2010 at 21:30. Reason: Merging 2 successive posts into 1
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  #756  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:46
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Re: Religious Musings

Well one doesn't need preconceptions about God, you read plenty about him in the bible no ? And judging from that it's a character I don't like. However as I stated I wouldn't rule out that there is indeed a higher being. That given I don't quite understand how you could agree with Aristotle and still follow a biblical God that is so obviously humanised, a product of antropomorphism.
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  #757  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:48
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yw.

Yeah, most of them are basically clowning and trolling without thinking. They're just playing it like a pee contest. They're just arguing for argument's sake. I consider it as a sign of their insecurity.
dont close the discussion

please carry on, i have learned alott from phos and dervaish

thanks ya guys
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  #758  
Old 31.08.2009, 15:56
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Well one doesn't need preconceptions about God, you read plenty about him in the bible no ? And judging from that it's a character I don't like. However as I stated I wouldn't rule out that there is indeed a higher being. That given I don't quite understand how you could agree with Aristotle and still follow a biblical God that is so obviously humanised, a product of antropomorphism.

Then I believe your reading of the God of the Bible was clouded by your preconceptions. I often suspect that people's conception of God is very much influenced by their experiences with their earthly fathers. Some perceive a mean, avenging God who is bent on punishing for right and wrong, like a grumpy Swiss acountant. Others perceive a loving, providing giver of life who is ever present with them. Do you realize there is such a wide pre-disposition of people's perception of God? And based on the same scripture? Do you realize my perception of God is vastly different from yours? Do you want to know why? I believe it is very simple, attitude.
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  #759  
Old 31.08.2009, 16:02
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Re: Religious Musings

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Then I believe your reading of the God of the Bible was clouded by your preconceptions. I often suspect that people's conception of God is very much influenced by their experiences with their earthly fathers. Some perceive a mean, avenging God who is bent on punishing for right and wrong, like a grumpy Swiss acountant. Others perceive a loving, providing giver of life who is ever present with them. Do you realize there is such a wide pre-disposition of people's perception of God? And based on the same scripture? Do you realize my perception of God is vastly different from yours? Do you want to know why? I believe it is very simple, attitude.
Surely I must have had a really evil father to not understand this God of yours as the loving, providing giver of life he is.

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"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
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1 Samuel 6:19 [NIV]
""But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy [1] of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the LORD had dealt them, "
Real nice guy huh ?
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  #760  
Old 31.08.2009, 16:05
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Re: Religious Musings

So your jolly attitude also makes you ignore what he supposedly did to Job, for example?

Your pseudo-psychoanalysis is cute and all, but people who bring up unflattering things about God's character from the Bible aren't just projecting their fathers, there's some very simple and concrete examples of his actions, that if you read in any other book, you'd go "Wow, this guy's a sadistic nutjob."
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