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  #821  
Old 31.08.2009, 20:21
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Re: Religious Musings

Dervaish, and maybe Castro;

I get the sense in conversations with you that at the very heart of Islam is peace. Unfortunately, I've only mostly read of propagandized materials. Do you have any recommendations on good reading that get to the heart of it? If possible, something without politics.

By the way, was Khalil Gibran Muslim?

TIA

In Judeo-Christian, and I assume Islamic belief, animals have the same breath of life as humans. This means they can think and feel. This means they have spirit. The book of Numbers allude to this.

Man, on the other hand, was created in the image of God. The same cannot be said of animals. According to Genesis, Man became a living soul. Man was also given dominion of all other living creatures.

The concept of spirit is not the same as the concept of soul.

Last edited by vwild1; 09.02.2010 at 20:23. Reason: Merging 2 successive posts into 1
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  #822  
Old 31.08.2009, 20:42
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Re: Religious Musings

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You are not appreciating the pull potential of my work Rusty Just imagine people having framed photos of backsides on their walls with incense sticks and garlands
It was wise of you to have shown some decorum by choosing an ambiguous turn of phrase regarding the actual location of said incense sticks and garlands.

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People kissing each others @ss to show respect to religious text. A dirty part of the body would get reclaimed. Moral police would offer UK MOT like tests to check if your @ss was clean and if the text was legible Oh! don't forget spot checks and fines too
How do you deal with abundant pilosity and liver spots?
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  #823  
Old 31.08.2009, 21:08
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I'm merely making the point that you may just be postulating we have a soul just to make ourselves feel special and different from animals.

As an example, you would say that morality is derived from god, and that without it, we would all be killing each other. Yet in nature, few species murder each other to the levels that theists would have us believe. Do they have a god given morality?

I see. I think Animals do kill each other. I once saw a pack of dogs tear apart a little puppy. Many other mammals have been know to kill their offsprings, or offsprings of another. I heard male cats were known to do the same when the mother cat is not around. You would probably find a zoology reference to these.
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  #824  
Old 31.08.2009, 21:19
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Re: Religious Musings

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This percentage will, I'm sure, include some of 4 million plus
Americans who have been victims of alien abductions.

Yet strangely, the Bible stays silent not only on the protocol
of such occasions, but also on the very existence of life
comparable to humankind.

I'm intrigued as to why the censor was so heavy with the black
ink...
.
mmmm isn't there something in the 1rst book of the "pentateuque" (for the life of me I can't remember the word in English) about the "sons of God who found wives among the daughters of men" ?
A rather extra-ordinary passage, never figured out what it meant.

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The concept of spirit is not the same as the concept of soul.
You've lost me there ?? *ignoramus*

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  #825  
Old 31.08.2009, 21:26
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Re: Religious Musings

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You've lost me there ?? *ignoramus*
perhaps its just that you don't speak mumbo-jumbo.
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  #826  
Old 31.08.2009, 21:27
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You've lost me there ?? *ignoramus*
Yes, soul and spirit are two different concepts. Hebrews 4:12 talks about the separability of them.
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  #827  
Old 31.08.2009, 21:40
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Re: Religious Musings

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I see. I think Animals do kill each other. I once saw a pack of dogs tear apart a little puppy. Many other mammals have been know to kill their offsprings, or offsprings of another. I heard male cats were known to do the same when the mother cat is not around. You would probably find a zoology reference to these.

Yes they do, and to be clear, I said, in general, species don't wantonly murder their own kind.

You'll also find references to infanticide in the bible.
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  #828  
Old 31.08.2009, 21:58
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Yes they do, and to be clear, I said, in general, species don't wantonly murder their own kind.

You'll also find references to infanticide in the bible.
You don't need to look in the Bible for that. Its practiced all the time in our present society.
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  #829  
Old 31.08.2009, 22:26
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Re: Religious Musings

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You don't need to look in the Bible for that. Its practiced all the time in our present society.
Ah yes, you mean abortion I take it, that's in the bible too.

Not to get too much into detail, all you find in the bible is justification for us being animals, while at the same time allows us to distance ourselves from that fact.

The morality contained within the bible and other religious texts is a morality you'll find anywhere in nature, not just restricted to humans. It is ambigous and related to times of plenty, and times of need. It is related to jealousy, paternity and territory, and others I'm sure.

Yet still, you'll refuse to look at nature and apply the lessons that could be learned, Maybe your right, maybe we should be ignorant of evolution, then nature, or gods law, would go it's course, and we would be blissfully ignorant of the fact we're playing a numbers game.
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Old 31.08.2009, 23:13
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Ah yes, you mean abortion I take it, that's in the bible too.

Not to get too much into detail, all you find in the bible is justification for us being animals, while at the same time allows us to distance ourselves from that fact.

The morality contained within the bible and other religious texts is a morality you'll find anywhere in nature, not just restricted to humans. It is ambigous and related to times of plenty, and times of need. It is related to jealousy, paternity and territory, and others I'm sure.

Yet still, you'll refuse to look at nature and apply the lessons that could be learned, Maybe your right, maybe we should be ignorant of evolution, then nature, or gods law, would go it's course, and we would be blissfully ignorant of the fact we're playing a numbers game.

I think you presume too much about what I think or do. It is true that the fingerprints of God can be observed in nature. This is how tribes from various parts of the world have always had a concept of God. This perception is built into human nature. Yet, somehow, it is too plain of an explanation for the atheist.

I never proposed anyone to be ignorant of evolution as a theory. I think I've said that a number of times already. What I do object to is the use of evolution theory as an insidious way of undermining faiths, and the attempt to replace it with the dead philosophy of atheism. As you put it in your post, you believe it is a numbers game. We don't. We believe it was pre-determined.

I think the implications of this is vast. You are either a bucket of chemicals as Catro puts it, or you are a living soul. If you truly believe that you are only a bucket of chemicals, then I suppose it is your prerogative. I, myself, have absolutely nothing to gain from trying to convince you otherwise. But you, on the otherhand, have everything to lose if you do have a soul. I myself don't need convincing. I am convinced, I live it out accordingly, and my experriences confirm it. But the fact that you keep coming back tells me you have doubts about what you believe. If so, that's alright. It is absolutely valid to doubt. It is the beginning of some wisdom. I suggest you investigate on your own, not on an Internet forum such as this.



This reminds me of a Hendrix song:

No reason to get excited
The thief he kindly spoke
There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke but uh
But you and I we've been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now
The hours getting late


Last edited by Phos; 31.08.2009 at 23:31.
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  #831  
Old 31.08.2009, 23:47
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Re: Religious Musings

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I think you presume too much about what I think or do. It is true that the fingerprints of God can be observed in nature. This is how tribes from various parts of the world have always had a concept of God. This perception is built into human nature. Yet, somehow, it is too plain of an explanation for the atheist.

I never proposed anyone to be ignorant of evolution as a theory. I think I've said that a number of times already. What I do object to is the use of evolution theory as an insidious way of undermining faiths, and the attempt to replace it with the dead philosophy of atheism. As you put it in your post, you believe it is a numbers game. We don't. We believe it was pre-determined.

I think the implications of this is vast. You are either a bucket of chemicals as Catro puts it, or you are a soul. If you truly believe that you are only a bucket of chemicals, then I suppose it is your prerogative. I, myself, have absolutely nothing to gain from trying to convince you otherwise. But you, on the otherhand, have everything to lose if you do have a soul. I myself don't need convincing. I am convinced, I live it out accordingly, and my experriences confirm it. But the fact that you keep coming back tells me you have doubts about what you believe. If so, that's alright. It is absolutely valid to doubt. It is the beginning of some wisdom. I suggest you investigate on your own, not on an Internet forum such as this.
I have problems with your spreading of ignorance, practically every post you place on atheism or evolution is misinformed, downright misrepresentation to complete lies.

In this post, you generalise that every tribe or people has a concept of god, this is untrue, everything from animism, atheism, agnostiscm, pantheism and ancestor worship exists, almost none conform to your view of god of the bible, and all can be attributable to a lack of understanding of the world in which we live.

I don't believe in the agnostic theory that it is wiser to accept that there is a god because of the consequences, if I believed that, I would have to follow the tennents of every religion in the world, just to be sure. Of course, most agnostics as we know them, were forced to choose between the religion of their forefathers and atheism, the only acceptable choice for western thinkers. Now that we are more globally connected, the choice is even more absurd.

Evolution was never a way of undermining faiths, it was simply science, it was only religious fundamentalists who made it that, not atheists, you only have the fundamentalists to thank for "militant" atheism. They seek to instill a new regime of superstition and ignorance in the name of religious correctness. As many have pointed out to you, evolution does not deny faith, it just means that people who take the various religious texts literally, are, quite frankly, utter crackpots.

I am not investigating religion on this forum, I merely don't want to see the level of religious fanaticism that I see in the US and the middle east brought here. I don't like their lies, they're misrepresentations and their propaganda and I particularly don't like their level of defeatism, their non thinking conformity and particularly their so called morality.
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  #832  
Old 01.09.2009, 00:14
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Re: Religious Musings

A nice calming song-

here

Or here:

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  #833  
Old 01.09.2009, 00:48
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Re: Religious Musings

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I have problems with your spreading of ignorance, practically every post you place on atheism or evolution is misinformed, downright misrepresentation to complete lies.
Point them out.



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As many have pointed out to you, evolution does not deny faith, it just means that people who take the various religious texts literally, are, quite frankly, utter crackpots.
Evolution doesn't. It's only a theory from Darwin. But atheism surely does.



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I am not investigating religion on this forum, I merely don't want to see the level of religious fanaticism that I see in the US and the middle east brought here. I don't like their lies, they're misrepresentations and their propaganda and I particularly don't like their level of defeatism, their non thinking conformity and particularly their so called morality.
Like it or not, and however you want to characterize it, it exists, and it is already here. So what next for you?
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  #834  
Old 01.09.2009, 01:06
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Re: Religious Musings

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Point them out.
well, while I'm not bothered enough to go through all your posts, from what I remember,

on evolution
your continual misrepresentation of the scientific use of the word theory, transitional fossils, lack of evidence and an atheist conspiracy.

On atheism
that we are all communists, then recently, that we are all free market libertarians. also that we are anarchists, gutless and without morals

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Evolution doesn't. It's only a theory from Darwin. But atheism surely does.
It's not really just a theory from Darwin, admittedly he came up with the original idea (though that's disputed), it has since been revised and amended by many different scientists. Atheism is my view, I can see that you disagree, well, that's that.

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Like it or not, and however you want to characterize it, it exists, and it is already here. So what next for you?
Same as always, try get on in life in a real and natural sense, not in a subjective spiritual one.
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  #835  
Old 01.09.2009, 09:28
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Re: Religious Musings

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Dogs can feel guilty. If my dog had an accident in the house (which was my fault) she wouldn't look at me or come near me until everything was nice and clean.

She would slink by if she'd been on the bed therefore giving herself away. She would ignore me if I'd been away for a week and be jealous of attention paid to long stay visitors. If emotions are connected to the soul then maybe animals do have one.
I think you are talking about your Dog and its behaviour can be attributed to whats called "Pavlov's Dog" as I had stated i my earlier post.

I am talking about dogs in general, stray dogs wild dogs not the domesticated ones.

Parrots can speak like Humans, but thats not exactly communicationg but more like "mimicking"

Might be wrong but thats my understanding.

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I'm merely making the point that you may just be postulating we have a soul just to make ourselves feel special and different from animals.

As an example, you would say that morality is derived from god, and that without it, we would all be killing each other. Yet in nature, few species murder each other to the levels that theists would have us believe. Do they have a god given morality?
Before going into an unnecessary argument, the existence of "Soul" is accepted in Philosophy (Descartes "I think therefore I am) and also in Meta-Physics.

What animals do is usualy instincts or habits according to "Divine instructions".. a particuler kind of Bird would have a particuler kind of habitat and the way the form their nest and breed.

Cuckoo never builds its nest ratehr lays its eggs in Crows nest.

Woodpecker would nest in the hollow it makes in the tree trunks. Foxes live in underground holes, Beavers make their nest like kind of dam on the springs.

Every species live in their natural habitat, where they've been, if it was "Survival of the fittest" then all the species would be moving towards the rich pickings of the fertile lands, as thats what survival is about.

Even if you see the Migration patterns of many animals, they do it as an instinct at a particuler time and the Predators ambush them at certain places, like water holes or streams but even then they still go through all that despite the risks.

Humans normally try to think of avoiding or overcoming the risk.

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  #836  
Old 01.09.2009, 09:45
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Re: Religious Musings

No, I think you missunderstood his concept of conditioning. Has nothing to do with emotions or anything else we're talking about here. Pavlov's conditioning can be applied to humans too by the way. Some funny prank videos on the net about it.
But yes, parrots can only mimick our talk, but that's not the case with apes.
The most intelligent apes are more intelligent than the least intelligent humans and
are far from the proclaimed primitive being solely dependant on instinct.
The more scientists look into animal intelligence and behaviour the more the distinction between animals and humans blur. Unsurprisingly the religious types are not paying too much attention on this part of science either. Most of what they claim distinguishes man from beast is just outdated knowledge.
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  #837  
Old 01.09.2009, 09:46
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If you say so

As existence of soul has never been proven I would say no one has soul (animals or humans)....the type that is described in religious text And if soul actually existed then I would not see any reason why animals would not have a soul too. After all we are animals too
If there's no difference between Humans and other animals, then you dont see cats, horses and bears making buildings and inventing cars or writing down Laws and regulations
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  #838  
Old 01.09.2009, 09:51
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Re: Religious Musings

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What animals do is usualy instincts or habits according to "Divine instructions".. a particuler kind of Bird would have a particuler kind of habitat and the way the form their nest and breed.

Cuckoo never builds its nest ratehr lays its eggs in Crows nest.

Woodpecker would nest in the hollow it makes in the tree trunks. Foxes live in underground holes, Beavers make their nest like kind of dam on the springs.

Every species live in their natural habitat, where they've been, if it was "Survival of the fittest" then all the species would be moving towards the rich pickings of the fertile lands, as thats what survival is about.

Even if you see the Migration patterns of many animals, they do it as an instinct at a particuler time and the Predators ambush them at certain places, like water holes or streams but even then they still go through all that despite the risks.

Humans normally try to think of avoiding or overcoming the risk.
Haha, Dervaish, you really have a way of supplying the refuting arguments of your own cause.
Many species do exactly NOT remain in their natural habitat, but come to the city to give up hunting and instead live off garbage and the spills of civilisation. It exactly proves that there is survival of the fittest, and not a god-instructed way of living.
Birds making nests out of plastic or whatever else suits them, rats living in the sewers, more foxes in the city than the forest etc.
Seriously, you better read up a bit on biology before making these claims, are every single one of them couldn't be more wrong.
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  #839  
Old 01.09.2009, 09:52
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Re: Religious Musings

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No, I think you missunderstood his concept of conditioning. Has nothing to do with emotions or anything else we're talking about here. Pavlov's conditioning can be applied to humans too by the way. Some funny prank videos on the net about it.
But yes, parrots can only mimick our talk, but that's not the case with apes.
The most intelligent apes are more intelligent than the least intelligent humans and
are far from the proclaimed primitive being solely dependant on instinct.
The more scientists look into animal intelligence and behaviour the more the distinction between animals and humans blur. Unsurprisingly the religious types are not paying too much attention on this part of science either. Most of what they claim distinguishes man from beast is just outdated knowledge.
Pavlov's conditioning can be applied to Humans too, Yes, nobody's arguing that.

A human in its worst form is worse than an Animal, and in its best form is better than Angels... its not just a matter of Science but also intellect.

Nobody is saying animals dont have intelligence, but that they only have limited intelligence. e.g. The way a Spider weaves its web to catch its prey, the location, the design etc is absolutely marvelous, but then thats ALL it does, it does not use it to make itself a bed and a chair

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Haha, Dervaish, you really have a way of supplying the refuting arguments of your own cause.
Many species do exactly NOT remain in their natural habitat, but come to the city to give up hunting and instead live off garbage and the spills of civilisation. It exactly proves that there is survival of the fittest, and not a god-instructed way of living.
Birds making nests out of plastic or whatever else suits them, rats living in the sewers, more foxes in the city than the forest etc.
Seriously, you better read up a bit on biology before making these claims, are every single one of them couldn't be more wrong.
Give up hunting and dine in fine Italian restaurants?

You are talking about Foxes, rats and pigeons or even crows... they usually have lived closer to Humans. You are right according to your limited knowledge of species.. but there are great many who stick to where belong.

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Old 01.09.2009, 10:04
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well, while I'm not bothered enough to go through all your posts, from what I remember,
Oh, come on. You accused me of lying. Where have I lied?



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On atheism
that we are all communists, then recently, that we are all free market libertarians. also that we are anarchists, gutless and without morals
Haha. That is funny. Speaking of lies, apart from the reference to "gutless turds", when did I do the others? As for morals, I think I spelled out the logic behind my case.

Of course, you don't see any problems when other people slur religion and believers, right? Those kind of posts are some of my biggest inspirations.
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