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  #941  
Old 22.03.2011, 09:54
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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hopefully the bell ringing will decrease too!
Exactly the opposite, if they're touting for business - longer and louder, to ensure it doesn't fall on deaf ears.
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  #942  
Old 22.03.2011, 09:56
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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Comrades Stalin and Mao would agree with you.
Yeah because there has never been an evil religious person. Bin Laden anyone?
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  #943  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:02
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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That's not just religion. It's culture and knowledge in general.

We still have a public holiday on May 1st, but I doubt many people know very much about Karl Marx these days. Probably not even the ones who celebrate his birthday (or whatever) by fighting the police and setting fire to cars.
I know where he's buried.
After an arduous expedition through overgrown woodland, I did stumble upon this:

religious-musings-22388446marxsgravepbase.jpg

[but I don't think it's the true messiah]
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  #944  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:05
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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Comrades Stalin and Mao would agree with you.
Those were not atheists.. so no....
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  #945  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:07
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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That's not just religion. It's culture and knowledge in general.

We still have a public holiday on May 1st, but I doubt many people know very much about Karl Marx these days. Probably not even the ones who celebrate his birthday (or whatever) by fighting the police and setting fire to cars.

Karl Marx was born during the Haymarket affair in Chicago?
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  #946  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:23
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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Sad or joyous?

And I highly doubt young people don't know anything about religious holidays. Young people have religion shoved down their throats in popular movies all the time. If you know anything about teenagers, they're more than likely to be just taking the piss.
Yes, they get it everywhere - in movies, books etc. but they don't understand it and they don't make connections. Show the "The Life of Brian" - they won't see why it is funny.
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  #947  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:24
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

I LOL at the fact that this came exactly after a temporary ban of the religious zealot of this forum....



LMFAO....
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  #948  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:25
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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That's not just religion. It's culture and knowledge in general.

We still have a public holiday on May 1st, but I doubt many people know very much about Karl Marx these days. Probably not even the ones who celebrate his birthday (or whatever) by fighting the police and setting fire to cars.
1st of May was not invented by or because of Karl Marx. It was one of the Nazis' biggest celebration.
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  #949  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:29
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Certain posts here reminded me of hitchens' challenge.

"Here is my challenge. Let someone name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever. And here is my second challenge. Can any reader of this column think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith? The second question is easy to answer, is it not? The first --I have been asking it for some time --awaits a convincing reply. By what right, then, do the faithful assume this irritating mantle of righteousness? "
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  #950  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:34
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

Gute morge everyone...im a protestant/bible believer and would just like to ask about churches near our place (untersiggenthal to be specific). Ive been here since February and never gone to church but would love to go either saturday or sunday but saturday better coz i believe in keeping the Sabbath. I know i could just google this but personal testimonies would be much better.
Vielen Dank and enjoy ur day.
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  #951  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:34
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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1st of May was not invented by or because of Karl Marx. It was one of the Nazis' biggest celebration.
You do know that 1st of may is the same thing (albeit on a different date) than Labor Day

Plus it was celebrated way before there was such a thing as nazis.


As to Germany: It is true that the Nazis made it (may 1st) an official holiday, but there were tentatives to do so during the "Weimarer Republik" from the opposite side of the political aisle.
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  #952  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:42
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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...Young people have religion shoved down their throats in popular movies all the time. ...
I must be watching the wrong movies.

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Those were not atheists.. so no....
They certainly promoted atheism as the state ideology, and under their regimes, they suppressed very heavily all forms of religion. Communism is, at its core, an atheist ideology.

I think an atheist state, which promotes and pushes atheism as the only true world view, is inevitably going to be an unpleasant place to live. "We do not tolerate any form of religion" seems a fairly intolerant position. And as for "All forms of religion are evil" -that just flies in the face of the facts of human history. I'd prefer to live in a state which promotes no specific ideology or philosophy.

It didn't take long for this thread to descend to the usual diatribes from ill-informed posters. On both sides.
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  #953  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:42
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

The church definitely has a traditional role here in Switzerland. The church itself, the bells, the holidays, the history all play an important role in being Swiss. No one wants to get rid of the them which is why they don't want to get rid of their Catholic roots either. By completely turning their back on the local religion, they are, in some ways, turning their back on Swiss tradition. It's a double edged sword.
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  #954  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:44
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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Gute morge everyone...im a protestant/bible believer and would just like to ask about churches near our place (untersiggenthal to be specific).
Stephanienie... you are in the wrong thread... welcome to the forum
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  #955  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:48
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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"Here is my challenge. Let someone name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever. And here is my second challenge. Can any reader of this column think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith? The second question is easy to answer, is it not? The first --I have been asking it for some time --awaits a convincing reply. By what right, then, do the faithful assume this irritating mantle of righteousness? "
I'm surprised that someone who is as apparently intelligent as Hitchens could ask these questions.

The answers are obvious - he must have been asking the wrong people.

1. No.
2. Yes.

I assume those answers are convincing enough?

But I can also think of wicked statements, or an evil actions performed, precisely because of atheist conviction. So, question 2 seems fairly pointless.

The idea that atheists are somehow better people morally and ethically because they are not religious seems to me to smack of assuming an "irritating mantle of righteousness".
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  #956  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:48
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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They certainly promoted atheism as the state ideology, and under their regimes, they suppressed very heavily all forms of religion. Communism is, at its core, an atheist ideology.
The personality cult is certainly not an atheist trait, if we could even define atheists traits at all. By pure definition, The soviet Union was not a Communist state.



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I think an atheist state, which promotes and pushes atheism as the only true world view, is inevitably going to be an unpleasant place to live. "We do not tolerate any form of religion" seems a fairly intolerant position. And as for "All forms of religion are evil" -that just flies in the face of the facts of human history. I'd prefer to live in a state which promotes no specific ideology or philosophy.

What we atheists and Antitheists push for is secularist states. The fact that primates used to hold other primates as holy in human history is one of the things from which we need to move on.



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I'm surprised that someone who is as apparently intelligent as Hitchens could ask these questions.

The answers are obvious - he must have been asking the wrong people.

1. No.
2. Yes.

I assume those answers are convincing enough?

.
Ahm no, as you failed to mention them

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The idea that atheists are somehow better people morally and ethically because they are not religious seems to me to smack of assuming an "irritating mantle of righteousness".
No, what Hitchens and most atheists state is that no claim to absolute truth and morality due to supernatural claims is valid, and is irritating when you have to push it on the rest.





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It didn't take long for this thread to descend to the usual diatribes from ill-informed posters. On both sides.
I can see it somewhat on your post...
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  #957  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:50
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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Stephanienie... you are in the wrong thread... welcome to the forum


ja, i notices, sorry. I aleady posted somewhere
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  #958  
Old 22.03.2011, 10:53
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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...What we atheists and Antitheists push for is secularist states.
As I say, I'd prefer to live in a state that promotes or protects no specific ideology or philosophy. That to me, would be a decent, secular state. A secularist state. Er.. no thanks.


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The fact that primates used to hold other primates as holy in human history is one of the facts we need to move on.
Are we talking catholic hierarchy here or monkeys? ( If there's a difference ).
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I can see it somewhat on your post...
Well of course!

Back on the subject of religion dying out. What would be interesting to know is how many people who don't do church/synagogue/fsm(wm) restaurant still consider themselves religious. And are there any religious groups/areas that are experiencing growth?
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  #959  
Old 22.03.2011, 11:00
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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"Here is my challenge. Let someone name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever.
What's the problem? Every religion has a number of saints, prophets, gurus, teachers, call them what you want, who did good and wonderful things because of their faith. What exactly are you getting at?
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  #960  
Old 22.03.2011, 11:04
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Re: Religion dying out in Switzerland

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The personality cult is certainly not an atheist trait, if we could even define atheists traits at all. By pure definition, The soviet Union was not a Communist state.
This is the No True Scotsman argument:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

It is a logical fallacy. If Hitchens has to grab at this particular straw, it shows he's heavily on the defensive.
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