Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > General off-topic  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1001  
Old 22.03.2011, 15:29
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 161
Groaned at 24 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 70 Times in 45 Posts
daboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthy
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
No, this doesn't make sense. If you de-register from church you don't pay church tax. If you don't like to have a holiday on Christmas day I am sure that you and your boss can come to some sort of agreement over that. If you want to celebrate Dawkins' birthday instead then nobody is preventing you from doing that. You don't have to live next to a church and churches do mostly have conspicuous towers so don't say you didn't know it was there. Other people live next to railway tracks, shopping centres and discos. These also make noise. And don't complain about the shops closing on Sunday either as the leftist trades unions wanted that just as much as the religious folks
Thank you mr straw man. It doesn't make sense because you bring up a bunch of trivial issues. People dying to suicide bombers while getting a slice of sbarro's at their local israeli mall isn't trivial. If roe v. wade was overturned then abortion would be made illegal in many US states, even in the case of rape and incest in some of the more religious communities. That's not really a trivial issue either for people who can't necessarily afford to relocate. I guess they deserve the coat hanger procedure. On a related note, stem cell research being stymied to everyone's detriment. Hundreds of thousands of people being denied the right to marry in US states (not to mention the millions throughout the world) because of religious based initiatives.
Reply With Quote
  #1002  
Old 22.03.2011, 15:35
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,281
Groaned at 189 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 17,746 Times in 7,223 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
I was going to mention that thread, since I found it interesting that for some reason it's perfectly acceptable on this forum for people to ridicule homeopathy, but religion deserves some special status?
Nope. Religion doesn't deserve any special status. Never said it did. But if you say things about religion, faith etc. that I don't agree with, I'll take you up on it.

Quote:
... unless whatever remains of the religion still directly influences the choices one might make politically--this is mostly stuff like abortion, gay rights...
That's nonsense. There are a million things that form political views. And the vast majority of them have very little to do with facts, reason or rationality. To single out religion, shows to me someone who dislikes religion on a very basic level - not because of reason. Also, I think your confusing American Bible Belt christianity with the mainstream.

Quote:
... on what basis did you adopt christianity?
Personal experience.
Quote:
Of course it could be a coincidence, but doesn't that seem unlikely that after deciding for yourself you would go for the default anyway?
Not really. It's precisely what you'd expect from a belief system that's been criticised and analysed, often hostilely, for ~2000 years, by some of the greatest thinkers who ever lived.
__________________
Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!
Reply With Quote
  #1003  
Old 22.03.2011, 15:40
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,222
Groaned at 43 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 5,200 Times in 2,016 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
To single out religion, shows to me someone who dislikes religion on a very basic level - not because of reason. Also, I think your confusing American Bible Belt christianity with the mainstream.
i would disagree with that. It has been constant politics of Catholicism both as religion and as it's State representative, to try and hinder reproductive controls. Same goes to some of the muslim countries around. (point in case the U.N Cairo conference ). We could go on with some other protestant examples, but so far this 2 will serve.

Quote:
View Post
Nope. Religion doesn't deserve any special status. Never said it did. But if you say things about religion, faith etc. that I don't agree with, I'll take you up on it.
the same goes for atheists. We'll take people on when they present something about morality and the way of current society when the presenters underlying principle is clearly a religious notion.

Last edited by Ouchboy; 22.03.2011 at 15:44. Reason: Merged posts
Reply With Quote
  #1004  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:00
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,741
Groaned at 224 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 22,384 Times in 9,511 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
Thank you mr straw man. It doesn't make sense because you bring up a bunch of trivial issues. People dying to suicide bombers while getting a slice of sbarro's at their local israeli mall isn't trivial. If roe v. wade was overturned then abortion would be made illegal in many US states, even in the case of rape and incest in some of the more religious communities. That's not really a trivial issue either for people who can't necessarily afford to relocate. I guess they deserve the coat hanger procedure. On a related note, stem cell research being stymied to everyone's detriment. Hundreds of thousands of people being denied the right to marry in US states (not to mention the millions throughout the world) because of religious based initiatives.
We were talking about Switzerland right? What does Roe vs. Wade or any other of the cases you mention have to do with life here? I am sure that if you want to be an atheist in Iran you would have problems worse than the ones you mention. But because somebody is persectuted in one place you cannot claim they are persecuted everywhere any blame religious folks everywhere for persecuting them. The straws you are clutching at are getting thinner every time. I replied to a statement you made about church bells and you hit back with Roe vs. Wade. You might as well be opposed to stem cell research because you don't like the packages they sell aspirin in. It's about as logical.
Reply With Quote
  #1005  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:04
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,222
Groaned at 43 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 5,200 Times in 2,016 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
We were talking about Switzerland right?.
Mm no we weren't
Reply With Quote
  #1006  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:06
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,281
Groaned at 189 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 17,746 Times in 7,223 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
i would disagree with that. It has been constant politics of Catholicism both as religion and as it's State representative, to try and hinder reproductive controls. Same goes to some of the muslim countries around. (point in case the U.N Cairo conference ). We could go on with some other protestant examples, but so far this 2 will serve...
I wasn't denying that religion has an effect on political views. I was challenging the claim that of all the things that affect political view, that somehow religion is the one that has to be avoided. As an aside, during the Diocletian persecution, one of the accusations brought was the Christians were trying to influence the political process. In many provinces the response from those in power was of confusion - since it was well known that Christians were pretty much a-political.

If only we could return to that outlook.

Of course, religion has been the motivating force of much good. But atheists discount that on the grounds that good has been done by non-believers as well. Which leaves us with the view that where religion is a force for good, it doesn't count, and where it's a force for evil, then that shows how bad it is.

From a religious point of view, any good that an atheist does was motivated by God so doesn't count, and any bad they do shows how evil they are anyway.

Looks like a matter of your view depending very much on where you're standing.

Quote:
View Post
...The straws you are clutching at are getting thinner every time. I replied to a statement you made about church bells and you hit back with Roe vs. Wade. You might as well be opposed to stem cell research because you don't like the packages they sell aspirin in. It's about as logical.
I noticed that as well.
__________________
Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!
Reply With Quote
  #1007  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:13
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,222
Groaned at 43 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 5,200 Times in 2,016 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
that somehow religion is the one that has to be avoided.
Well the reason is that religion IS political, even by scripture and claiming the deeds of territories.

in order to change the outlook they would need to ACTUALLY be apolitical, which they refuse to do.


Quote:
View Post
Of course, religion has been the motivating force of much good.
But atheists discount that on the grounds that good has been done by non-believers as well.
It is discounted of the amount of BAD that it has done given their claims of absolute truth, there is a big difference.
Reply With Quote
  #1008  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:15
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 161
Groaned at 24 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 70 Times in 45 Posts
daboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthy
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
We were talking about Switzerland right? What does Roe vs. Wade or any other of the cases you mention have to do with life here? I am sure that if you want to be an atheist in Iran you would have problems worse than the ones you mention. But because somebody is persectuted in one place you cannot claim they are persecuted everywhere any blame religious folks everywhere for persecuting them. The straws you are clutching at are getting thinner every time. I replied to a statement you made about church bells and you hit back with Roe vs. Wade. You might as well be opposed to stem cell research because you don't like the packages they sell aspirin in. It's about as logical.
I was under the impression that this thread is OT and about religion generally, not limited to religion in CH. I imagine you know this but had nowhere else to go with your reply. So I suppose gays have the same rights as heterosexual couples do in CH? There aren't any issues here with respect to gender equality, etc, which may be in part due to patriarchal judeo/christian traditionalist ideas. The SVP isn't using religion to polarize communities?

Anyway, it's not about specific cases of religion influencing politics, it's that it has the potential to, anywhere and everywhere.
Reply With Quote
  #1009  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:23
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,281
Groaned at 189 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 17,746 Times in 7,223 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
...It is discounted of the amount of BAD that it has done given their claims of absolute truth, there is a big difference.
Why would having absolute truth mean that you'd be good? I mean, I could say "I claim I've got the absolute truth", and that hit you over the head with a hammer. That wouldn't invalidate my claim. And if I defined my absolute truth to be "hitting ouchboy over the head with a hammer is the ultimate good", then I could continue to claim to be good!

What claims does religion have on absolute truth, in any case? What do you mean/is meant by "absolute truth". One fairly orthodox theological view, going back at least 1000 years, is that God is infinite and therefore impossible to know entirely. Another long standing issue is whether, given that God is infinite, it is possible to know him at all. Gödel answered that one last century, btw.
__________________
Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!
Reply With Quote
  #1010  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:26
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,741
Groaned at 224 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 22,384 Times in 9,511 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
I was under the impression that this thread is OT and about religion generally
nevertheless, the issue with church bells is specifically Swiss (or at least on this forum it is because thee are a lot of rants about it) and I was replying to that.

Quote:
View Post
not limited to religion in CH. I imagine you know this but had nowhere else to go with your reply. So I suppose gays have the same rights as heterosexual couples do in CH? There aren't any issues here with respect to gender equality, etc, which may be in part due to patriarchal judeo/christian traditionalist ideas. The SVP isn't using religion to polarize communities?

Anyway, it's not about specific cases of religion influencing politics, it's that it has the potential to, anywhere and everywhere.
Put it this way:

Most religions were founded by guys who said things like, be nice to one another and make peace and the religions were initially groups of people who thought that was a good thing. Now some centuries later some other guys twisted the words of these founders to say something else, and use it to justify things the original founders would not hav approved, therefore religion as a whole is wrong.

Now the highway cose is also a system devised to prevent accidents and conflicts while using public roads. Some people don't respect the highway code and even hire lawyers to twist the laws to make them justify the opposite of what they there were intended to say. therefore by your logic, the highway code too must be wrong and all people who respect it are bigots.
Reply With Quote
  #1011  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:37
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,222
Groaned at 43 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 5,200 Times in 2,016 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
What claims does religion have on absolute truth, in any case?
We know what the boss wants at every time about everything everywhere.
And why he did it.

You have to take my word for it.


Quote:
View Post
nevertheless, the issue with church bells is specifically Swiss (or at least on this forum it is because thee are a lot of rants about it) and I was replying to that.
It happens in Mexico too.


Quote:
View Post
Most religions were founded by guys who said things like, be nice to one another and make peace and the religions were initially groups of people who thought that was a good thing. Now some centuries later some other guys twisted the words of these founders to say something else, and use it to justify things the original founders would not hav approved, therefore religion as a whole is wrong.
That's a pretty big generalization.

Can you mention how Leviticus is about loving people by slaving them?


Quote:
View Post
Now the highway cose is also a system devised to prevent accidents and conflicts while using public roads. Some people don't respect the highway code and even hire lawyers to twist the laws to make them justify the opposite of what they there were intended to say. therefore by your logic, the highway code too must be wrong and all people who respect it are bigots.
Codes of highway are made using some sort of reasoning, not supernatural claims, your analogy is fail. Furthermroe there is no presumption of absoultes on codes on laws, that is why court cases refer to previous rulings on issues.
Reply With Quote
  #1012  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:48
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,281
Groaned at 189 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 17,746 Times in 7,223 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
We know what the boss wants at every time about everything everywhere.
And why he did it.

You have to take my word for it.
Well, I know that there are some religious people who think like that, but I'm sure that most don't. ( Most, in my experience, haven't much grasp on what they believe or are supposed to believe). I'm fairly sure that most churches don't have that perspective. Even Roman Catholicism. Of course, there are issues where I might say "I believe this particular point is absolutely true". But that's a world away from knowing everything, everwhere and every why.
Reply With Quote
  #1013  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:52
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,281
Groaned at 189 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 17,746 Times in 7,223 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
...
Can you mention how Leviticus is about loving people by slaving them?
...
Which part of leviticus? And can you cite teachers who use that part to justify enslavement? How did Christians who fought for the abolition of slavery reconcile leviticus into their world view? What was the nature of slavery in the time and place that Leviticus was written?
Reply With Quote
  #1014  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:53
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: -
Posts: 1,641
Groaned at 26 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 2,932 Times in 1,202 Posts
Russkov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
Now the highway cose is also a system devised to prevent accidents and conflicts while using public roads. Some people don't respect the highway code and even hire lawyers to twist the laws to make them justify the opposite of what they there were intended to say. therefore by your logic, the highway code too must be wrong and all people who respect it are bigots.
That's kind of a false equivalency. Compared to the highway code, there isn't much twisting that needs to be done with the major holy texts to have them say some repugnant things. Imagine if the Old highway code consisted of the Asphalt Diety condoning cutting people off in traffic and running them off the road. And punishments weren't made clear in a practical way, but you still gotta follows the traffic laws because thousands of years ago the Asphalt Diety flooded the Earth and killed a bunch of Egyptian kids because their parents didn't get proper license plates. The New highway code gets all cuddly though, with Asphalt Jr. saying that all drivers should all just get along, except the bad drivers who won't be able to take the best roads towards Bitumania.

It would be pretty silly for anyone to consider that highway code to be some kind of authority on their driving.
Reply With Quote
  #1015  
Old 22.03.2011, 16:55
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,222
Groaned at 43 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 5,200 Times in 2,016 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
Of course, there are issues where I might say "I believe this particular point is absolutely true". But that's a world away from knowing everything, everwhere and every why.
So when they said, " Slavery is ok" and then retracted is ok?

They are making the claim to represent supreme autorithy, and you should judge them as such. They have blatantly failed time after time.

"There is no way that Copernicus is right".. no wait he was.

"Hmm In order to be a catholic you MUST believe in immaculate conception, because it happened."

" You cannot have a bible in your language" well know you can, but we are going to make a saint of the guy who burned those who did."

That moral compass seems to me Awfully bad,
Reply With Quote
  #1016  
Old 22.03.2011, 17:34
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 161
Groaned at 24 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 70 Times in 45 Posts
daboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthydaboy is considered unworthy
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
I wasn't denying that religion has an effect on political views. I was challenging the claim that of all the things that affect political view, that somehow religion is the one that has to be avoided.
Politics should be free of all irrational influence. Religion isn't being singled out, per se, but only as a function of this thread. Of course other irrational crap influences politics, but how does that help the case that religion should be allowed to influence politics?

Quote:
View Post
Of course, religion has been the motivating force of much good. But atheists discount that on the grounds that good has been done by non-believers as well. Which leaves us with the view that where religion is a force for good, it doesn't count, and where it's a force for evil, then that shows how bad it is.
I don't know why i bother. I suppose it's better than playing AQo from UTG due to a lack of distraction.

Doing good always "counts." Nothing is being discounted. Irrational belief can inspire one to do good things, but irrational belief is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for acts of good. Proof: Some faithful don't perform good acts, and some non faithful do. Therefore the proposition, "Good if and only if religious" = FALSE. (if either the antecedent or consequent are false the statement is false).

On the other hand, religion is a necessary and sufficient condition for doing some kinds of evil. "some particular evil if and only if religious" = TRUE.

Example: The devoutly catholic father who, despite his love for his children, abuses and disowns his gay son or daughter due to biological circumstances which they don't understand but which happen to be against "god's will." The religion is the "but for," the sine quo non, without which the father-son or father-daughter relationship wouldn't be ruined. The relationship is ruined in such a way if and only if the father's religion condemns homosexuality; the kid's future relationships are ruined if and only if society's religion condemns homosexual marriage; the young, bright (admittedly slightly careless), inadvertently pregnant girl's choices in life are ruined/interfered with/whatever if and only if society's religion condemns abortion (assuming she wants one).

Both sides of the if and only if statement are true in those cases above. The only counter to this argument is to insist that it's not the religion that makes the father homophobic, or it's not religion that compels or compelled society to ban abortion. Otherwise I think the point is made and proven. The logical possibility that there might exist some non religious reason for condemning the above is complicated but obviously important, so feel free to attempt to justify the religious position of any topical social issue, such as abortion, on non religious grounds. I don't think it can be done.

Finally, the proposition, "some evil if and only if atheist" = FALSE. It can't be a necessary and sufficient condition for any evil because all an atheist does is affirm that there's no evidence to support the claim that a god or gods exist.
Reply With Quote
  #1017  
Old 22.03.2011, 18:43
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Religious Musings

You chaps still at it?
Reply With Quote
  #1018  
Old 22.03.2011, 19:00
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,281
Groaned at 189 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 17,746 Times in 7,223 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

The gulf of mindsets is too wide to be bridged by internet discussion.

I occasionally indulge in these converations on the off-chance some interesting argumentation will arise - it does happen - but so far it's the same old same old.

Last edited by NotAllThere; 22.03.2011 at 19:12.
Reply With Quote
  #1019  
Old 22.03.2011, 19:02
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Religious Musings

Quote:
View Post
The gulf of mindsets is too wide to be bridged by internet discussion.
True. When I was on the other side of the fence, I spent hours and hours in religious debate forums (they're the best place on the internet for a good scrap).

Did anyone manage to convert me?

What do you think?

Reply With Quote
  #1020  
Old 22.03.2011, 19:16
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,281
Groaned at 189 Times in 166 Posts
Thanked 17,746 Times in 7,223 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religious Musings

Ouchboy raised some interesting points, so it wasn't a complete waste. I managed to find a logical weaknesses in one of my favourite points, before I posted it, which was good.

I'll get round to posting it some time and see if the flaw gets spotted.

I just love the absoluteness of some atheists. In an age of relativism, it makes a refreshing change.

I think this video represents my views the best.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
christianity, evil-ution, extremism, fundamentalist religion, islam, religion




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What do non-religious people do on religious holidays? Bell Other/general 61 09.10.2009 19:37
Religious discrimination by SWISS. Canadian_dude Complaints corner 90 03.08.2009 14:46
Religious Sisters - Nuns - and the like ... Sada General off-topic 41 20.05.2009 20:03
EU expat contract + religious tax debydebo Finance/banking/taxation 4 30.01.2008 11:04
Football musings Lob General off-topic 41 08.05.2006 16:28


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 15:21.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0