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  #101  
Old 24.08.2009, 22:40
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Re: Religious Musings

Wow! That is awesome imagery of Paradise.

I love the commentary from Al-Suyuti.

I think the point is that in Paradise, you are King.... and its good to be the king.


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  #102  
Old 25.08.2009, 00:19
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Re: Religious Musings

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Once again... I can understand your disgust for Islam or Religions in genral but that does not give you a reason to "Slander" ... I guess some people never learn or give up!

Quran does exist in book form and anybody can read it... again can show me which verse in Quran says about Stoning of a woman who comitts adultery?

If you cant then... just SHUT UP.
Some verses lighter than what you look for (to be fair Mohammad respected women and slaves more than what was common before him, but still nothing close to what modern society has):
al-nissa 33:
"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. "
54 "So of them is he who believes in him, and of them is he who turns away from him, and hell is sufficient to burn. (55) (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. "

The conclusion will be that, prophets and what they brought can be considered as reforms during their own time and region and culture, but can't be used and expanded over centuries and continents. (for example to where skin transplant can be achieved:-) )
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  #103  
Old 25.08.2009, 11:18
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Re: Religious Musings

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Some verses lighter than what you look for (to be fair Mohammad respected women and slaves more than what was common before him, but still nothing close to what modern society has):

The conclusion will be that, prophets and what they brought can be considered as reforms during their own time and region and culture, but can't be used and expanded over centuries and continents. (for example to where skin transplant can be achieved:-) )
You're right in stating Prophets brought reforms as per what was needed at that Time.. but having said that some things have far reaching effects, even till today.

Keeping of Concubines was not abolished explicitly in Quran but the practive does not exist at present and is not acceptable.

Another thing is, some things sound good to say or talk about but have detrimental effects in Practice. e.g. The Christian practice of only 1 Marriage with no possibility of Divorce... actually makes people vary of getting married thinking "What will I do, if it didnt work out" .. if its only gonna be 1, better make sure its the Rightest one.

Whereas Muslims are free to marry and divorce, all it takes is uttering the words 3 times, both in case of marriage and divorce, but in practice, Muslims have more Steady and Monogamous marriages. We can compare the statistics regarding marriages and divorces between muslism and non-muslim societies.

Regarding the verses you quoted.. the jist of that is Men are responsible for well being of Women and Women should protect her husbands property and dignity in his absence ... and if any woman falls short of it then Husband should, in first instance 1) tell her, then 2) stop sharing bed with her then 3) hit her. Hitting should not be confused with beating or hurting, in Arabic there are different words to describe different shades of meaning, more than English or many other languages. Therefore its good to choose a good translation, I prefer Abdullah Yusuf Ali's personally.

The skin comment just to clarify that.. after 3rd degree burns you do not feel any pain as all the sensory nerves have been destroyed... and some people in those times said that... they will only feel pain for few minutes and then they will go all numb... this Verse was in response to that.
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  #104  
Old 25.08.2009, 11:25
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Re: Religious Musings

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then 3) hit her. Hitting should not be confused with beating or hurting, in Arabic there are different words to describe different shades of meaning, more than English or many other languages. Therefore its good to choose a good translation, I prefer Abdullah Yusuf Ali's personally.
Could you please provide an example of hitting that doesn't hurt the woman?
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  #105  
Old 25.08.2009, 11:26
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Re: Religious Musings

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Could you please provide an example of hitting that doesn't hurt the woman?
Hey, babe. Do you come here often? (or is that hitting on?)


EDIT: Although that can often be pretty painful...
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  #106  
Old 25.08.2009, 11:32
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Re: Religious Musings

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Could you please provide an example of hitting that doesn't hurt the woman?
Light smack on the Shoulder, like you sometimes do with kids?

Is it really that hard to understand?

P.S. Though I would go with Sandgrounder's response
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  #107  
Old 25.08.2009, 11:34
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Re: Religious Musings

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Could you please provide an example of hitting that doesn't hurt the woman?
Slapping the cheeks
(hope you know which ones)
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  #108  
Old 25.08.2009, 11:39
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Re: Religious Musings

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Light smack on the Shoulder, like you sometimes do with kids?

Is it really that hard to understand?
Treat 'em like kids, that's the spirit.
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Slapping the cheeks
(hope you know which ones)
But that could lead to a violation of "2) stop sharing bed with her" and throw a monkey wrench into the whole program of setting my lady straight. *sigh* I would make a terrible Muslim.
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  #109  
Old 25.08.2009, 11:40
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Re: Religious Musings

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Could you please provide an example of hitting that doesn't hurt the woman?
In one of the explanations of the "hitting" the Prophet, may peace be upon him, said this should be done with a small stick like a miswak or a toothbrush once. Not too HIT her but the idea is to gesture and let the women know that this is the final warning before you will proceed for divorce.
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  #110  
Old 25.08.2009, 11:42
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Re: Religious Musings

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In one of the explanations of the "hitting" the Prophet, may peace be upon him, said this should be done with a small stick like a miswak or a toothbrush once. Not too HIT her but the idea is to gesture and let the women know that this is the final warning before you will proceed for divorce.
I'm picturing this play out in my mind and it's kind of awesome.
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  #111  
Old 25.08.2009, 11:44
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Re: Religious Musings



You made my day
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  #112  
Old 25.08.2009, 11:54
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Re: Religious Musings

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I'm picturing this play out in my mind and it's kind of awesome.
Foreplay is important.. no

It shouldnt be surprising all Muslim countries have fast growing populations...
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  #113  
Old 25.08.2009, 11:55
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Re: Religious Musings

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I'm picturing this play out in my mind and it's kind of awesome.
What's in your mind is from your understanding :-)
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  #114  
Old 25.08.2009, 12:11
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Re: Religious Musings

Reading the post, I feel that this is a common problem with no solution at all the levels (I mean individual, city, society political etc).

The problem is when anyone talks about Islam or Muslims, people tend to become over critical. I think all the religion in the world having a book or not, have been interpreted differently by the top people of the society of the time to use it for their own benefit.

Now a days Islam faces a big challenge. If people debate or talk about any other religion in open forum, it is ok it but as soon as some one has a positive or even negative view about Islam the whole thing gets very interesting and people come out with all kind of opinions.

Not sure about the internet quotes used in the previous posts, but my opinion is today information on internet is not used to make an opinion or to know about something, but to prove a point you can quote a URL. Funny thing is you can find large information for both side of the aruguments.

I large nation or society or a religion can't be all wrong. You can't have all billion+ people wrong or extremist, not every little child, a young guy or old man can't be wrong or bad in any society. We are just doing the re-branding. There are issues and needs reforms but the way the rest of world is handling it will make it only worst. I see this emerging as a huge challange.

Last edited by timpy; 25.08.2009 at 12:25. Reason: typos
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  #115  
Old 25.08.2009, 12:22
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Re: Religious Musings

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Another thing is, some things sound good to say or talk about but have detrimental effects in Practice. e.g. The Christian practice of only 1 Marriage with no possibility of Divorce... actually makes people vary of getting married thinking "What will I do, if it didnt work out" .. if its only gonna be 1, better make sure its the Rightest one.
Marriage in Christianity, as well as Judaism, has profound spiritual implications. The marrying of a man and a women is analogous to the reunion of God and men. In scripture, God's people are often depicted as a bride, and God as the bridgroom. In Jewish weddings, the ceremony takes place under a canopy called a Chuppah, which refers to the cloud covering over Mout Sania. Idolatery is often depicted as adultery, and so fidelity as an attribute of faithfulness.
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  #116  
Old 25.08.2009, 12:28
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Re: Religious Musings

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Reading the post, I feel that this is a common problem with no solution at all the levels (I mean individual, city, society political etc).

The problem is when anyone talks about Islam or Muslims, people tend to become over critical. I think all the religion in the world having a book or not, have been interpreted differently by the top people of the society of the time to use it in its own benefit.

Now a days Islam faces a big challenge. If people debate or talk about any other religion in open forum, it is ok it but as soon as some one has a psotive or even negative view about Islam the whole thing gets very interesting and people come out with all kind of opinions.

Not sure about the internet quotes used in the previous posts, but my opinion is today information on internet is not used to make an opinion or to know about something, but to prove a point you can quote a URL. Funny thing is you can find large information for both side of the aruguments.

I large nation or society or a religion can't be all wrong. You can't have all billion+ people wrong or extremist, not every little child, a young guy or old man can't be wrong or bad in any society. We are just doing the re-branding. There are issues and needs reforms but the way the rest of world is handling it will make it only worst. I see this emerging as a huge challange.
Did you notice, there were half a dozen posts that were making fun of all fairy tales, but followers of one fairy tale reacted more sharply and steered the discussion in their direction? Do you see a pattern there?
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  #117  
Old 25.08.2009, 12:43
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Re: Religious Musings

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Now a days Islam faces a big challenge.
My serious questions about Islam:


Is there a single entity called Islam?

Is a tenet of Islam to spread the faith throughout all the world? Europe and US included?

In Islam, do non-believers have the same rights as believers?

Can Islam, democracy and plurality co-exist?


I'm not sure anyone can casually and sufficently answer these with a word. I'm looking at how this is actually taking place in other parts of the world. I often here examples that are not encouraging. The most recent one is the arrest and sentence of a women for drinking a beer. Yes, the sentence was commuted. But I think it was due to media attention.

To be honest, I don't hear many encouraging examples. Got any?
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  #118  
Old 25.08.2009, 13:35
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Re: Religious Musings

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My serious questions about Islam:
Usually when you dont get a satisfactory Answer, you're not asking the right Questions.

1) Your first Question should be Does God exist?
If not, why nother...
If Yes, What kind of God is it, His Attributes

2) Whats the Purpose of Creation?

In other words Who am I and What am I doing here.


I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capability to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. The world must doubtless attach high value to the predictions of great men like me. I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today. The medieval ecclesiastics, either through ignorance or bigotry, painted Muhammadanism in the darkest colours. They were in fact trained both to hate the man Muhammad and his religion. To them Muhammad was Anti-Christ. I have studied him — the wonderful man, and in my opinion far from being an Anti-Christ he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much-needed peace and happiness. But to proceed, it was in the 19th century that honest thinkers like Carlyle, Goethe and Gibbon perceived intrinsic worth in the religion of Muhammad, and thus there was some change for the better in the European attitude towards Islam. But the Europe of the present century is far advanced. It is beginning to be enamoured of the creed of Muhammad.

I hold the Prophet of Arabia in great esteem and I can quite understand that it would have been impossible to restrain and wean that illiterate and perverse race, sunk in the miasma of utter moral depravity, from committing the most heinous of crimes, and imbue its people with enthusiasm to strive after righteousness and assimilate high morals and virtues, without projecting such a terrible and intensely awe inspiring spectacle of Hell and an equally captivating and enticing image of a land flowing with milk and honey to represent Heaven before their vision.

Interview, (April 1935), as quoted in The Genuine Islam, Vol. 1 No. 8 (January 1936), and for a transcript of the aricle see: "A Shavian and a Theologian".

Interview, (17 April 1935) in The Genuine Islam, Vol. 1 (1936), as quoted at "A Shavian and a Theologian"

Last edited by Dervaish; 25.08.2009 at 13:43. Reason: Typo
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  #119  
Old 25.08.2009, 14:34
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Re: Religious Musings

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Usually when you dont get a satisfactory Answer, you're not asking the right Questions.

1) Your first Question should be Does God exist?
If not, why nother...
If Yes, What kind of God is it, His Attributes

2) Whats the Purpose of Creation?

Those aren't the questions I asked. I know my answers for those. My question was about the religion of Islam, the challenges Timpy mentions, . Again:



Quote:
My serious questions about Islam:


Is there a single entity called Islam?

Is a tenet of Islam to spread the faith throughout all the world? Europe and US included?

In Islam, do non-believers have the same rights as believers?

Can Islam, democracy and plurality co-exist?

And in addition, I asked for encouraging examples of Islam applied to counter stories such as beer drinkers getting caned.
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  #120  
Old 25.08.2009, 14:48
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Re: Religious Musings

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My serious questions about Islam:


Is there a single entity called Islam?

Is a tenet of Islam to spread the faith throughout all the world? Europe and US included?

In Islam, do non-believers have the same rights as believers?

Can Islam, democracy and plurality co-exist?


I'm not sure anyone can casually and sufficently answer these with a word. I'm looking at how this is actually taking place in other parts of the world. I often here examples that are not encouraging. The most recent one is the arrest and sentence of a women for drinking a beer. Yes, the sentence was commuted. But I think it was due to media attention.

To be honest, I don't hear many encouraging examples. Got any?
1) Islam is a Single entity

2) Its not a tenent as such.. but there is an emphaisis on Preaching of Good and Forbidding of Evil.

3) Believers and Non-Believers have same Rights as "citizens" under the Law, differences are where the Religion differs e.g. Believers pay Zakat (Charity), Non-Believers pay Tax.

4) Not relevant, Islam offers its own form of Government and Ideology of State.

The woman arrested and sentences of drinking Beer, has comitted a "crime" punishable under the Law of Land she resides in. What if someone gets arrested for smoking Cannabis in some Christian country?

Islam is NOT facing any "challenges" it has existed for Centuries and even had its days of Glory.
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