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  #121  
Old 25.08.2009, 13:55
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Re: Religious Musings

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And in addition, I asked for encouraging examples of Islam applied to counter stories such as beer drinkers getting caned.
Like ... ?

Drunk men holding beer, running after naked ladies and having an orgy in a park... proving how "open minded" muslims are?
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  #122  
Old 25.08.2009, 13:56
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1) Islam is a Single entity

2) Its not a tenent as such.. but there is an emphaisis on Preaching of Good and Forbidding of Evil.

3) Believers and Non-Believers have same Rights as "citizens" under the Law, differences are where the Religion differs e.g. Believers pay Zakat (Charity), Non-Believers pay Tax.

4) Not relevant, Islam offers its own form of Government and Ideology of State.

The woman arrested and sentences of drinking Beer, has comitted a "crime" punishable under the Law of Land she resides in. What if someone gets arrested for smoking Cannabis in some Christian country?

Islam is NOT facing any "challenges" it has existed for Centuries and even had its days of Glory.

Interesting that you frame Islam as a form of Government. Is that a key aspect of the religion? Because in instances where believers live in a nation that is non-islamic, how then do they reconcile the religion with their social surroundings? I imagine somewhere deep down inside is a desire to return to an Islamic state, or even work towards changing the nation into an Islamic state.

Last edited by Phos; 25.08.2009 at 14:07.
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  #123  
Old 25.08.2009, 13:58
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Re: Religious Musings

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Like ... ?

Drunk men holding beer, running after naked ladies and having an orgy in a park... proving how "open minded" muslims are?

That might suffice for some members of this forum. But as for me, I'd be more interested in stories of how Islam helps some lives become more positive.
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  #124  
Old 25.08.2009, 14:00
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Re: Religious Musings

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Islam is NOT facing any "challenges" it has existed for Centuries and even had its days of Glory.
Perhaps the question is better deferred to timpy who wrote:

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Now a days Islam faces a big challenge.
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  #125  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:15
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Re: Religious Musings

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Perhaps the question is better deferred to timpy who wrote:
It's not Islam that faces a big challenge but it's rather humanity faces a big challenge. Humans change themselves with time. They always make something that is prohibited as lawful with time. And they get wise enough to twist and interpret something to suit themselves. So religion doesn't need to evolve it's the humans who need to stick to the true religion in all times.

Islam is not a religion that came into existence some 1400 years ago but it is the religion which is as old as humanity is. Islam means submitting your will to One True God (God can have number of beautiful names and one of the names is Allah). One who submits is a Muslim. With keeping this in mind all those people who said i submit my will to One God are muslims. Muslim is just an arabic term for these people. With this logic Quran make it clear that all the people right from Adam till Muhammad, including Noha, Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Josef, Job, Lot, Jonah, John, Jesus etc, were Muslims because they all said in one or the other way that "I seek not my will but the will of my God".

We have so many comments/differences of opinion about one or the other laws or rulings mentioned in the Quran. Many may not understand the reasoning behind it unless you know what Islam is. You cannot pick and choose one particular thing just to make a point. You have to think of it as a whole. We may have differences but i think the best way to move forward is to realise the commonalities in Islam and other religions.

The Glorious Qur’an says in Surah Al Imran (Surah Al Imran means Chapter: Family of Imran - the father of Mary), Chapter. No. 3, Verse. No. 64:
Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: Which is the first term? that we worship none but Allah (One True God); that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah."
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  #126  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:19
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Re: Religious Musings

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So religion doesn't need to evolve it's the humans who need to stick to the true religion in all times.
Precisely why moderately or non-religious people seek to contain the influence of Islam ITguy.
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  #127  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:25
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Re: Religious Musings

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Interesting that you frame Islam as a form of Government. Is that a key aspect of the religion? Because in instances where believers live in a nation that is non-islamic, how then do they reconcile the religion with their social surroundings? I imagine somewhere deep down inside is a desire to return to an Islamic state, or even work towards changing the nation into an Islamic state.
I used to think you are well read, but maybe not.

Islam is a Way of Life ... so Government is also part of Life... or no?

Believers in non-islamic nations, are usually there by Choice and its their duty to find ways to fulfill their Religion.

I guess thats the point you are trying to force a "confession" out.. the "desire or even working towards changing any nation" is maybe same as some "Western" countries trying to bring about the "Civilised CHANGE" in some Eastern countries?

But to answer your point... If you think you haev something good and beautiful, wouldnt you want everyoen to share it (NOT FORCE it down the someone's throat) ... Is not part of Mutual Learning and Human Development.. Material as well as Spiritual?
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  #128  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:27
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Re: Religious Musings

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Precisely why moderately or non-religious people seek to contain the influence of Islam ITguy.
I beleive Islam is the true religion. You may not and you are free to learn and practise any other. There is no compulsion for you to follow Islam. "Lakum Dinkum Waliyadeen" To you is your religion and to me is mine. Islam had a glorious past and it will prevail (without a change of dot) over everything come what may. You can keep on arguing about it and nobody stops you from it.
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  #129  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:31
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Re: Religious Musings

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That might suffice for some members of this forum. But as for me, I'd be more interested in stories of how Islam helps some lives become more positive.
Dont really have "some" stories about how Islam "helps" lives become more positive... but only thing I can say is:

1) Compare Suicide rates (even teenage suicides) among Developed countries and third world muslim countries... seems like even material well being is nto good enough.

2) Divorces Rates, Failed Marriages, Broken Families, Drug and Alcohol Addicts as a result?

3) State of Western countries .. lets say there was a no Supply of Alcohol for 3 days?

4) Compare people's attitudes... where people are happier and livlier?

Maybe You can give us how your Faith or Way of Life has helped some lives become more positive?
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  #130  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:34
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Re: Religious Musings

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I beleive Islam is the true religion. You may not and you are free to learn and practise any other. There is no compulsion for you to follow Islam. "Lakum Dinkum Waliyadeen" To you is your religion and to me is mine. Islam had a glorious past and it will prevail (without a change of dot) over everything come what may. You can keep on arguing about it and nobody stops you from it.
In the age of science, technology,... it's not the man count who counts, but knowledge, economy, power,... and let's be honest Religious/muslim countries are not doing good on any of them (with exception of nature given oil). During middle age there was a period of Muslim scince shining, but those days are gone and apparently not repeating, so I wonder how you think it will prevail.
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  #131  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:36
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Re: Religious Musings

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It's not Islam that faces a big challenge but it's rather humanity faces a big challenge. Humans change themselves with time. They always make something that is prohibited as lawful with time. And they get wise enough to twist and interpret something to suit themselves. So religion doesn't need to evolve it's the humans who need to stick to the true religion in all times.

Islam is not a religion that came into existence some 1400 years ago but it is the religion which is as old as humanity is. Islam means submitting your will to One True God (God can have number of beautiful names and one of the names is Allah). One who submits is a Muslim. With keeping this in mind all those people who said i submit my will to One God are muslims. Muslim is just an arabic term for these people. With this logic Quran make it clear that all the people right from Adam till Muhammad, including Noha, Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Josef, Job, Lot, Jonah, John, Jesus etc, were Muslims because they all said in one or the other way that "I seek not my will but the will of my God".

We have so many comments/differences of opinion about one or the other laws or rulings mentioned in the Quran. Many may not understand the reasoning behind it unless you know what Islam is. You cannot pick and choose one particular thing just to make a point. You have to think of it as a whole. We may have differences but i think the best way to move forward is to realise the commonalities in Islam and other religions.

The Glorious Qur’an says in Surah Al Imran (Surah Al Imran means Chapter: Family of Imran - the father of Mary), Chapter. No. 3, Verse. No. 64:
Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: Which is the first term? that we worship none but Allah (One True God); that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah."
No wonder, it looks like the handiwork of a rambling neanderthal

I would have enjoyed it like the other religious comic books I read, but this one has a bit too much of blood and gory
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  #132  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:40
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Re: Religious Musings

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Dont really have "some" stories about how Islam "helps" lives become more positive... but only thing I can say is:

1) Compare Suicide rates (even teenage suicides) among Developed countries and third world muslim countries... seems like even material well being is nto good enough.

2) Divorces Rates, Failed Marriages, Broken Families, Drug and Alcohol Addicts as a result?

3) State of Western countries .. lets say there was a no Supply of Alcohol for 3 days?

4) Compare people's attitudes... where people are happier and livlier?

Maybe You can give us how your Faith or Way of Life has helped some lives become more positive?
DIvorce rate might be low in your mentioned countries but mainly due to shame, lack of power of women to ask for divorce, being dicriminated after divorce,. financial dependence,... believe me there are milions there who live on hell of family relationship but can't or don't want to divorce.
In some Muslim countries there are milions of addicted. In those who are not, because of very harsh sentence.
Why not talking about other statistics of Stoning, Excecutions, political prisoners,wealth distributions,suicide bombers,bombs for even their own people maybe from another branch, ...
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  #133  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:40
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Re: Religious Musings

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In the age of science, technology,... it's not the man count who counts, but knowledge, economy, power,... and let's be honest Religious/muslim countries are not doing good on any of them (with exception of nature given oil). During middle age there was a period of Muslim scince shining, but those days are gone and apparently not repeating, so I wonder how you think it will prevail.
I think you need to get the comparisions right.

Are you comparing Islamic economies vs Christian or other religions?
How about African Christian countries... is its about religion?

What you would call "Muslim" achievements some muslims might want to distinguish that between.. Arab, Turkish, Persian achievements etc...

Islam is a Religion not a State... as a Religion it is Prevailing and always will.

Plus... whats the basis of your analysis in terms of economies? Who is Richer.. one who is 10,000$ in debt or whos 0, no debt no asset?

USA is Trillion$s in debt.. Afghanistan owe no money to no one, whos Richer?
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  #134  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:45
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I used to think you are well read, but maybe not.

Islam is a Way of Life ... so Government is also part of Life... or no?

Believers in non-islamic nations, are usually there by Choice and its their duty to find ways to fulfill their Religion.

I guess thats the point you are trying to force a "confession" out.. the "desire or even working towards changing any nation" is maybe same as some "Western" countries trying to bring about the "Civilised CHANGE" in some Eastern countries?

But to answer your point... If you think you haev something good and beautiful, wouldnt you want everyoen to share it (NOT FORCE it down the someone's throat) ... Is not part of Mutual Learning and Human Development.. Material as well as Spiritual?

Putting aside the put-down. I'm not trying to "force" anything out of you. Questions and Answers are part of normal honest dialog.

I believe your basic answer was Yes, Islam is also a form of government. And Yes, wherever Muslims may live, it is legitimate to try to change it to Islam. No?
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  #135  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:46
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Re: Religious Musings

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DIvorce rate might be low in your mentioned countries but mainly due to shame, lack of power of women to ask for divorce, being dicriminated after divorce,. financial dependence,... believe me there are milions there who live on hell of family relationship but can't or don't want to divorce.
In some Muslim countries there are milions of addicted. In those who are not, because of very harsh sentence.
Why not talking about other statistics of Stoning, Excecutions, political prisoners,wealth distributions,suicide bombers,bombs for even their own people maybe from another branch, ...
There are Muslims living in US and Europe.. no?
Women there have all the freedom and "power"...

As for Political prisoners, wealth distribution, suicide bombers and insurgencies... You need to trace back where the "Money" is coming from and Imperial and post colonial politics... its not as simple...

But yes.. do give me statistics of "stoning"
and also... date rape and abuse of sexual workers etc..

Its just pointless having this arguments... as I said before... point was Having or Not having a Faith and its importance... rest is as complicated as human nature.
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  #136  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:49
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Re: Religious Musings

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In the age of science, technology,... it's not the man count who counts, but knowledge, economy, power,... and let's be honest Religious/muslim countries are not doing good on any of them (with exception of nature given oil). During middle age there was a period of Muslim scince shining, but those days are gone and apparently not repeating, so I wonder how you think it will prevail.
Don't judge future with current scenario. Often history repeats itself. Even in current scenario Islam is growing fast. In the west Islam is growing fast. Islam is growing fast in US and Europe. Not because it's the religion of paper but because it is a complete way of life. Nobody is forcing people in the west to convert to Islam. Moreover majority of the people accepting Islam are women. Islam does not need any force to grow but it's destined to grow.
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  #137  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:49
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Re: Religious Musings

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Putting aside the put-down. I'm not trying to "force" anything out of you. Questions and Answers are part of normal honest dialog.

I believe your basic answer was Yes, Islam is also a form of government. And Yes, wherever Muslims may live, it is legitimate to try to change it to Islam. No?
Hahahaha... "Legitimate" !!

Where did you get the "legitimacy" thing?

NO.. its not legitimate... it falls under once's obligations and duties as a "Guest" .. if visiting

If Native/Resident then as long as He/She is free to practive his/her life according to his/her belief... he/she canNOT try to "change" it to Islam.
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  #138  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:50
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Re: Religious Musings

Folks, when I said Islam is facing challenges, I meant more in terms of all the people post 9-11 taking a different view of the religion. It is about the perception of people about it rather than saying that the religion is extincting or in danger of losing its core. Sorry, if it sounded other way.

I am saying this because I feel it. I am not Muslim but I am sure Muslims feel it even more. I think a very big problem with the community is the denial. Unless we accept the fact we can't resolve it. I have lived in a society and friends full of Muslims. I have friends here and back home and talking to them most of them feel that people pay too much attention to the religious practices now then before.

A case here is the news about the Muslim women punished for drinking beer. It is all over the place, in forums and in media.

Now I think that really is a challenge for a society not only the specific religion if the situation is like that. I don't say that it is essentially because of religion being bad. On the contrary I said it is not like that.

Looking to the responses I feel, this is a common response all over the world from Msulims. Living in the work of denial and not focusing on resolving the myths and issues about them. Myths are largely as a result of Media bad mouthing, war-mongering and sheer ignorance of individuals. and there are number of issues as well related to the problem.
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  #139  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:50
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....were Muslims because they all said in one or the other way that "I seek not my will but the will of my God".

I think we have already established that in human organizations, there is the tendency for certain individuals to assume power over the rest. In the case of particular Islamic communities, I believe they are referred to as Imams(?).

In such situations, how does a Muslim differentiate between the will of God and the will of the Imam?
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  #140  
Old 25.08.2009, 15:51
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Putting aside the put-down.
Sorry about the put-down though... You do keep your cool
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