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  #61  
Old 21.12.2010, 15:48
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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I still sthink they should simply calm down, sit together and talk it through over a nice cup or two...

certain posts I think we should be able to both thank and groan.
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  #62  
Old 21.12.2010, 15:49
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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So here is the situation.... Sorry, but it’s quite a long one...
In July I moved into a shared apartment with a friend of a friend. My friend had lived there in the past, but has lived elsewhere for 3 years.The person who already lived here is the main tenant and I am the untermieter. It is all above board, I pay my rent to her on time and I have signed the necessary paperwork with the city. I should probably point out here, that they were partners, but seperated amicably.
In October my housemate sent an e-mail to my friend ( the one who introduced us) stating that she was no longer allowed to visit the property and if she did so she could be prosecuted for trespassing under Article 186. The e-mail was prompted by the fact that my friend happened to stay over for one night a few nights before... She did absolutely nothing wrong, i was present and she did not enter my housemates private rooms.
This is the extract from the e-mail:
Art. 186
Hausfriedensbruch
Wer gegen den Willen des Berechtigten in ein Haus, in eine Wohnung, in einen abgeschlossenen Raum eines Hauses oder in einen unmittelbar zu einem Hause gehörenden umfriedeten Platz, Hof oder Garten oder in einen Werkplatz unrechtmässig eindringt oder, trotz der Aufforderung eines Berechtigten, sich zu entfernen, darin verweilt, wird, auf Antrag, mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder Geldstrafe bestraft.
Since the e-mail was issued my friend has not stayed the night but has visited on a handful of occasions and I have always been present.
Today, my friend received another e-mail from my housemate, attaching a letter and it reads as follows:


Generelles Hausverbot

Am 4. Oktober habe ich dir per e-mail geschrieben, dass du nichts mehr in meiner Wohnung zu suchen hast.
Dein Verhalten ist schlecht und verletzend. Du bist eine Frau geworden, die weder Ehre, Ethik noch Moral kennt.
Ich erlasse an dich, (my friends name), Zürich, folgendes


generelles Hausverbot



Dieses Hausverbot erstreckt sich auf alle meine Räumlichkeiten an der (my address), die Wohnung in der 2. Etage, Kellerabteil und Estrichabteil.Es ist dir, (my friends name), unter Androhung von Straf- und Kostenfolgen im Zuwiderhandlungsfalle untersagt, die oben erwähnten Räumlichkeiten zu betreten oder durch beigezogene Dritte betreten zu lassen.


The questions are; Is she allowed to forbid any of my friends from visiting when I am at the property? Is the letter, or indeed the original e-mail legally binding?
Any pointers on this would be helpful. Thanks in advance.
From what i understand and know from my job as janitor -cum-landlady as well from what i found online.......she can.......she is the tenant of the premises...however there is a flaw....she can not just issue this 'order' via email she has to have a 'signed' copy of this order from the person she wants to prevent to enter the premises...where it states that the recipient confirms to have received :

Eine gleichlautende Kopie erhalten zu haben und dass der unterzeichnenden
Person der Inhalt erläutert wurde, bestätigt:

Datum: Unterschrift des/r Empfängers/in:

The person who receives this order has been explained to WHY she/he gets this and has to sign a copy as well

Also,from the text in your inital post ( copy of the order) i gather that there is more bad feeling between the two persons involved than you either are not informed about or not have put into your inital post.

The person who issues the order needs to have reasonable grounds and what is stated in the form you shared with us ...its more of a personal issue the issuer has with the recipient..as moral,ethics and honour of someone do IMVHO not count as reasonable grounds for this order.....it would be a differnt story if say for example the recipient:

- has stolen stuff from the issuer's flat
- has forced entry on or into the premises
- is stalking and/or issuing threats against the tenant

Anywhichway, i presume not to press to have this person round in that flat would be favourable for all concerned as it may also backfire onto you ..as you are still living there.......I also think if she really wants to go through with it.......then she should best look for the help of an attorney to have it legally correct and watertight.... one-way SMS and email make it not legally valid.
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  #63  
Old 21.12.2010, 15:49
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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Yes, but I don't want her to think she's been victorious. I'm a woman and therefore must have the last word. Hmmm but then again so is she
Oh jeez, we'll be here till next Christmas then....
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  #64  
Old 21.12.2010, 15:51
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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Anyway, sorry to spoil your fun boys, but back on topic.....

Housemate has now sent my friend 3 e-mails and 5 sms on this matter. Anyone of the article numbers I should quote for Stalking and Harassment?
Would suggesting Article 69 be betraying just how childish I really am?
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  #65  
Old 21.12.2010, 15:51
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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Sorry .
Will be vewy, vewy good.

Anyway, can't you throw this back at her? Tell her to stop harassing your friend, or you'll go to the police (or your friend should). Seems as if you're resigned to leaving anyway, so it won't be burning any bridges.
I agree with PaddyG:
The law is more about what you can prove. So provided that your friend really is in the good books, you could assume that the flatmate has Nothing on your friend..... yet your friend has all sorts of threatening emails and SMS's.

I would at least try to mediate a conversation between them first before you take things legal.

..... I would also advise that you find somewhere else to live BEFORE you interfere with this. This sounds like a total time bomb about to explode. You don't want to be anywhere near this if it's not really your problem.
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  #66  
Old 21.12.2010, 15:52
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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I still sthink they should simply calm down, sit together and talk it through over a nice cup or two...
Or a glass or three.
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  #67  
Old 21.12.2010, 15:54
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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certain posts I think we should be able to both thank and groan.
Well, we did give honest and sound advice for the first two pages or so... quite long given the topic. There is nothing to add except that the OP has changed to "plus I will need to have the last word" or "how can I get her back for harrassment"... I am not going to look that one up as I prefer catfights to be physical rather than pseudo-legal bullshit emails.

So I honestly cannot take it seriously from here anymore... a complete trainwreck.
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  #68  
Old 21.12.2010, 15:54
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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From what i understand and know from my job as janitor -cum-landlady as well from what i found online.......she can.......she is the tenant of the premises...however there is a flaw....she can not just issue this 'order' via email she has to have a 'signed' copy of this order from the person she wants to prevent to enter the premises...where it states that the recipient confirms to have received :

Eine gleichlautende Kopie erhalten zu haben und dass der unterzeichnenden
Person der Inhalt erläutert wurde, bestätigt:
Datum: Unterschrift des/r Empfängers/in:

The person who receives this order has been explained to WHY she/he gets this and has to sign a copy as well

Also,from the text in your inital post ( copy of the order) i gather that there is more bad feeling between the two persons involved than you either are not informed about or not have put into your inital post.

The person who issues the order needs to have reasonable grounds and what is stated in the form you shared with us ...its more of a personal issue the issuer has with the recipient..as moral,ethics and honour of someone do IMVHO not count as reasonable grounds for this order.....it would be a differnt story if say for example the recipient:

- has stolen stuff from the issuer's flat
- has forced entry on or into the premises
- is stalking and/or issuing threats against the tenant

Anywhichway, i presume not to press to have this person round in that flat would be favourable for all concerned as it may also backfire onto you ..as you are still living there.......
It crossed my mind that the letter would need to be signed by both parties. It hasn't even been signed by the issuer.

And under no circumstances has theft, forced entry or stalking been part of this scenario. It is more a case of someone not getting over the love she lost over 8 year ago...
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  #69  
Old 21.12.2010, 15:56
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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Well, we did give honest and sound advice for the first two pages or so... quite long given the topic. There is nothing to add except that the OP has changed to "plus I will need to have the last word" or "how can I get her back for harrassment"... I am not going to look that one up as I prefer catfights to be physical rather than pseudo-legal bullshit emails.

So I honestly cannot take it seriously from here anymore... a complete trainwreck.
Aargh Jeez, come on.... It was said very much with tongue in cheek ( that's cheek )
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Old 21.12.2010, 15:57
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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... is more a case of someone not getting over the love she lost over 8 year ago...

8years ago?.. ok nevermind my foolish posts... this woman really is a bit deranged and the sooner you get out of there the better.
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Old 21.12.2010, 15:57
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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It crossed my mind that the letter would need to be signed by both parties. It hasn't even been signed by the issuer.
To say the obvious: bars throw out people based on the same paragraph of the Hausrecht every night... they never need to sign anything for that.
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  #72  
Old 21.12.2010, 15:58
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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Yes, but I don't want her to think she's been victorious. I'm a woman and therefore must have the last word. Hmmm but then again so is she
Then one of you will have to get temporary gender re-assignment surgery and come grovelling back with apologies to the other one.
On topic – since your next landlord may ask your current landlord for a reference, I wouldn’t push this to the point it could make it impossible for you to find somewhere to move to.
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Old 21.12.2010, 15:59
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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It crossed my mind that the letter would need to be signed by both parties. It hasn't even been signed by the issuer.

And under no circumstances has theft, forced entry or stalking been part of this scenario. It is more a case of someone not getting over the love she lost over 8 year ago...

......don't get me wrong,I was just sort of illustrating with this examples when such a thing MIGHT be 'reasonable' or needed........

It's very sad that it has come to this for your 'landlady'...coz with this she is hurting herself probably more than the other party and wasting energy she could use to find a NEW love.

I hope for all concerned it will calm down soon.

Have a good christmas all the same !!


sylv
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Old 21.12.2010, 16:01
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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To say the obvious: bars throw out people based on the same paragraph of the Hausrecht every night... they never need to sign anything for that.
Yep but in this case it is usually drunkards who pester guests or personel or fighters or aggressive people about to start a fight....that get thrown out..so this would be 'reasonable' grounds
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Old 21.12.2010, 16:04
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

Ok, I've taken all your posts on board and am actively looking for a new home.

But still the question is. Can I have my friend (plus the film crew ) over to dinner on Friday? My housemate will be away.
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Old 21.12.2010, 16:06
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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......don't get me wrong,I was just sort of illustrating with this examples when such a thing MIGHT be 'reasonable' or needed........

It's very sad that it has come to this for your 'landlady'...coz with this she is hurting herself probably more than the other party and wasting energy she could use to find a NEW love.

I hope for all concerned it will calm down soon.

Have a good christmas all the same !!


sylv
Thanks sylv. I couldn't agree with you more.

You have a good Christmas too.
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  #77  
Old 21.12.2010, 16:06
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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Aargh Jeez, come on.... It was said very much with tongue in cheek ( that's cheek )
Whose tongue in whose cheek? You're really confusing me...
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Old 21.12.2010, 16:09
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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Ok, I've taken all your posts on board and am actively looking for a new home.

But still the question is. Can I have my friend (plus the film crew ) over to dinner on Friday? My housemate will be away.
Sure, we'll be there. Maybe your housemate would appreciate a battery-operated Christmas present? She seems rather uptight.
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Old 21.12.2010, 16:10
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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Sure, we'll be there. Maybe your housemate would appreciate a battery-operated Christmas present?

?


I get sooooooooooooo confused.
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Old 21.12.2010, 16:14
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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Ok, I've taken all your posts on board and am actively looking for a new home.

But still the question is. Can I have my friend (plus the film crew ) over to dinner on Friday? My housemate will be away.

You're playing with fire if you do..espcially if she finds out....considering that the note issued is/may be not legal and binding, it's is however a risk for you to take....as the 'landlady' seems to be already very wound up over the issue and considering you are 'sub-tenant' so basically you could land yourself in a big mess as i presume you would need ' her' kitchen,living room and so on.....

someone mentioned in a previous post about a time bomb.....and it could be likely that she would feel herself backstabbed by you..as you know about all that stuff and still get on with it..and then she could cook up grounds to send you packing immediately ......so if you haven't got new lodgings already or know at least somewhere you could stay should it come to the worst case scenario..... i think it's preferable to relocate the meeting of you all to a neutral place......
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