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Old 21.12.2010, 14:16
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Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

So here is the situation.... Sorry, but it’s quite a long one...
In July I moved into a shared apartment with a friend of a friend. My friend had lived there in the past, but has lived elsewhere for 3 years.The person who already lived here is the main tenant and I am the untermieter. It is all above board, I pay my rent to her on time and I have signed the necessary paperwork with the city. I should probably point out here, that they were partners, but seperated amicably.
In October my housemate sent an e-mail to my friend ( the one who introduced us) stating that she was no longer allowed to visit the property and if she did so she could be prosecuted for trespassing under Article 186. The e-mail was prompted by the fact that my friend happened to stay over for one night a few nights before... She did absolutely nothing wrong, i was present and she did not enter my housemates private rooms.
This is the extract from the e-mail:
Art. 186
Hausfriedensbruch
Wer gegen den Willen des Berechtigten in ein Haus, in eine Wohnung, in einen abgeschlossenen Raum eines Hauses oder in einen unmittelbar zu einem Hause gehörenden umfriedeten Platz, Hof oder Garten oder in einen Werkplatz unrechtmässig eindringt oder, trotz der Aufforderung eines Berechtigten, sich zu entfernen, darin verweilt, wird, auf Antrag, mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder Geldstrafe bestraft.
Since the e-mail was issued my friend has not stayed the night but has visited on a handful of occasions and I have always been present.
Today, my friend received another e-mail from my housemate, attaching a letter and it reads as follows:


Generelles Hausverbot

Am 4. Oktober habe ich dir per e-mail geschrieben, dass du nichts mehr in meiner Wohnung zu suchen hast.
Dein Verhalten ist schlecht und verletzend. Du bist eine Frau geworden, die weder Ehre, Ethik noch Moral kennt.
Ich erlasse an dich, (my friends name), Zürich, folgendes
generelles Hausverbot
Dieses Hausverbot erstreckt sich auf alle meine Räumlichkeiten an der (my address), die Wohnung in der 2. Etage, Kellerabteil und Estrichabteil.Es ist dir, (my friends name), unter Androhung von Straf- und Kostenfolgen im Zuwiderhandlungsfalle untersagt, die oben erwähnten Räumlichkeiten zu betreten oder durch beigezogene Dritte betreten zu lassen.


The questions are; Is she allowed to forbid any of my friends from visiting when I am at the property? Is the letter, or indeed the original e-mail legally binding?
Any pointers on this would be helpful. Thanks in advance.
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:28
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

Oh my god... this sounds horrible, I wish could be of some help.

However, I have a a little off the track idea, since your flat mate is sending email to forbid entrance of your friend to your house shared house, in the same way you can send an Invitation email to your friend. In case your flat mate takes any action you friend have a proof that he/she has been invited.
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:33
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

Wow, thats quite an email... As a matter of interest, has your room mate ever approached you or your friend directly? (prior to the emails).

I have very little experience with a situation like this, but it really sounds over the top.

If I were you, the first people I would speak to is the building owners (i.e. verwaltung). They will be able to advise you on whether this has been sanctioned by them or not. Without their approval, I assume your roommate can't do much.

Officially, I suppose your roommate is the main tenant and as such probably can dictate quite a few things. However, this sounds a little over board. I don't see though, how a roommate can bar his/her fellow roommate from having a friend over for visits.

A big question though would be: is there anything your roommate could use against you or your friend (i.e. have there been any rules broken in the past? and I mean any rules, even minor ones) She could use them.

Hope this helps.
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:35
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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I should probably point out here, that they were partners, but seperated amicably.
.
So you are living with your friends ex, and you want your flatmates ex to stay???

I don't think this isn't about your "Friend".

I doubt the seperation was as amicable as you think..... but more civilised.

If he was that cool about it, then your "friend" could stay for sure.
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:41
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

I just wanted to add that in addition to this she has also plastered (and I mean plastered) notices all over the main entrance saying that we must all double lock the front door, as not doing so encourages people to enter the premises illegally. And anyone found not doing so will be fined 300 CHF
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:42
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

In a nutshell, are you shagging your flatmate's ex? If that's the case, I'm not surprised she's none too keen on her staying.
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:43
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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So you are living with your friends ex, and you want your flatmates ex to stay???

I don't think this isn't about your "Friend".

I doubt the seperation was as amicable as you think..... but more civilised.

If he was that cool about it, then your "friend" could stay for sure.
I agree with you. But they had been seperated for 5 years before my friend moved out. And they had remained good friends ever since. Had dinner together regularly etc... Come on, get over it!
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:44
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

Ok, I want to make sure I got this right:

- you are sharing an appartment, your housemate is the one who rents from the landlord and you rent a room from him.
- you have his ex as a guest
- he formally throws her out and pretty rudely tells her not to show up anymore.

I had a short look on some forums, but I am not a lawyer. What I understood:

- your housemate can throw out people without consulting you. Sorry.
- he cannot throw out your guests without giving a reasonable cause. The guest being his ex is not a cause, he or she would need to do something that is against the Hausordnung (for example flushing the toilet in the evenings )

In short: You are in a legally weak position, but the housemate is 99% wrong. I do not think you want to fight this legally, but simply have a long chat with him why he over-reacts like this and that you expect to chose your guests yourself. Maybe he has a reason he did not tell you about... maybe he hasn't and will stop behaving like a dick.
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:44
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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In a nutshell, are you shagging your flatmate's ex? If that's the case, I'm not surprised she's none too keen on her staying.
No, I am not and in any case its none of your or her business
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:45
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

So.....the three of you are all girls?

Just trying to undestand why someone would do such a thing.
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:48
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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Old 21.12.2010, 14:49
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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I just wanted to add that in addition to this she has also plastered (and I mean plastered) notices all over the main entrance saying that we must all double lock the front door, as not doing so encourages people to enter the premises illegally. And anyone found not doing so will be fined 300 CHF
And what happens to this 300 CHF? Sounds like she's pretty fond of imposing rules off the top of her head. Have you heard about these emails and letters from your "Obermieter", or only through your guest-friend?
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:49
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

Another thing that just struck me. How many Females/Males are involved in this situation? As this could have an impact on how it is viewed, if their was a legal proceding. Why I say this is that a male visiting a female could be viewed as more threatening (in the eyes of a female rommate) than say a female visiting a female (in the eyes of a female roommate).

Oops, just saw your friend is female... So is your roommate male or female? E.g. a male trying to say that a female is threatening won't really hold up in court.
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:49
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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Ok, I want to make sure I got this right:

- you are sharing an appartment, your housemate is the one who rents from the landlord and you rent a room from him.
- you have his ex as a guest
- he formally throws her out and pretty rudely tells her not to show up anymore.

I had a short look on some forums, but I am not a lawyer. What I understood:

- your housemate can throw out people without consulting you. Sorry.
- he cannot throw out your guests without giving a reasonable cause. The guest being his ex is not a cause, he or she would need to do something that is against the Hausordnung (for example flushing the toilet in the evenings )

In short: You are in a legally weak position, but the housemate is 99% wrong. I do not think you want to fight this legally, but simply have a long chat with him why he over-reacts like this and that you expect to chose your guests yourself. Maybe he has a reason he did not tell you about... maybe he hasn't and will stop behaving like a dick.
Your understanding is 100% correct, apart from replace he with she
I agree with your comments, but really would like to know if I can still invite my friend over for a coffee or if her entering my home even as my guest means she could face prosecution.

The long and short is that I need to find somewhere else to live. And fast, as I have invited her over for Christmas dinner
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:50
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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I just wanted to add that in addition to this she has also plastered (and I mean plastered) notices all over the main entrance saying that we must all double lock the front door, as not doing so encourages people to enter the premises illegally. And anyone found not doing so will be fined 300 CHF
Er, what? So your housemate is actually the owner of the entire building? That is quite important info as it changes his legal rights significantly.
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:51
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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So.....the three of you are all girls?

Just trying to undestand why someone would do such a thing.
Yes, we are all girls..
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:51
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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No, I am not and in any case its none of your or her business
Well, it's not, but if there's a restraining order you don't know about....
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:52
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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Er, what? So your housemate is actually the owner of the entire building? That is quite important info as it changes his legal rights significantly.
No she is not, she just rents the flat I live in.
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:53
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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So.....the three of you are all girls?

Just trying to undestand why someone would do such a thing.
Gotta quote myself here.......this is a "all girl issue" right?

Then we don't need to spend energy on the "why" (which I know you did not ask for) but only on the "is this ok?".
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Old 21.12.2010, 14:54
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Re: Can my housemate forbid a friend from visiting me?

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I agree with you. But they had been seperated for 5 years before my friend moved out. And they had remained good friends ever since. Had dinner together regularly etc... Come on, get over it!
OK, I can see your perspective if this is the case. But clearly, there is a LOT more to the story that you can't possibly know.

I had to run the German bit through google translate before... (Wow).

I would just advise to take a precautionary step back and keep your mouth shut and observe for a bit



Your previous use of the word 'amicable' and 'Article 186' just don't play well together.


Be careful here.

If anything. If you are closer to your friend.... I'd move out.
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