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  #101  
Old 10.01.2012, 11:20
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

That's excellent news! I would definitely keep trying to get them to cancel the whole thing. I would guess it's not COOP but the intermediary company you listed.

Anyway, send them the picture of the cooker and tell them you expect this whole bill to be cancelled.

Good luck & congrats!
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  #102  
Old 18.09.2012, 19:48
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

This is why we left.

The deposit is the last bit of "gotcha" that we have left for Switzerland. So glad to be done with the place.

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Hey, it's Switzerland. Amazing how such things are not in the realm of 'no way could that happen' here.

If it's in the law or there's a rule about it then some people seemingly will go to enormous lengths to get their 'rights'. Also, it boils down to how determined you are to get your rights because such things cut both ways.

If someone really wants to act like a pr*ck and be ludicrously anal about stuff like 'damage' and 'unclean' apartments, are you going to drag it through all the processes and take it to court, costing you possibly thousands in the process and of course blighting your life in the meantime?

Sadly it appears that there are plenty of people here who are determined to get their way and if you happen to butt heads with them they are more than willing to make things as hard for you as possible. I would suspect that they get some sort of perverse pleasure and feeling of control out of it.

That;s why I always get a nagging feeling of nervousenss here when going into a situation where somebody _could_ raise a stink if they were so minded or especially petty. I've seen and heard about seemingly ridiculous situations arising many times since living in Switzerland. I think it's part of an invisible aura of tension that I seem to experience here. Or maybe I'm just becoming extremely paranoid

Gav
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  #103  
Old 18.09.2012, 20:32
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

the rules as we understood them are very well defined, with different "life expectancy" for different rooms or pieces of equipment. As an example, rooms need to be repainted every 8 years. So if you stay for four years, you are liable for half the cost. I was amazed at the cost ... the landlord chooses the painter and you get the bill - 3800 CHF for two days! I need to change jobs.

However, when we moved into our new house, this landlord was far more relaxed .. scratches on the floor were "to be expected" .. the total opposite of our previous landlord.

I also think some landlords believe that they can charge anything because either your company or your insurance will cover it. I found that when I explained it was my cost, they were more reasonable! Good luck!
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  #104  
Old 18.09.2012, 20:38
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

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the rules as we understood them are very well defined, with different "life expectancy" for different rooms or pieces of equipment. As an example, rooms need to be repainted every 8 years. So if you stay for four years, you are liable for half the cost. I was amazed at the cost ... the landlord chooses the painter and you get the bill - 3800 CHF for two days! I need to change jobs.

However, when we moved into our new house, this landlord was far more relaxed .. scratches on the floor were "to be expected" .. the total opposite of our previous landlord.

I also think some landlords believe that they can charge anything because either your company or your insurance will cover it. I found that when I explained it was my cost, they were more reasonable! Good luck!
You can't be serious about the painting costs ? Thats CHF 1900 !
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  #105  
Old 07.03.2013, 08:57
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

Hello,

I was wondering if someone can give any advice regarding a situation I now find myself in. We had our leaving inspection one week ago - all seemed to go OK, the landlord spotted a couple of things that were broken (small stuff such as the magnetic holder for the shutter handle).

Anyway, one week later we get a registered letter informing us that the glass ceramic hob has a crack in it and that it must be replaced. Therefore, can we contact our insurance company immediately and claim it so that they can send an assessor round to check and confirm. The landlord has already informed us that he had a technician out to confirm that it needs to be replaced and the cost is X.

Can anyone advise where I stand with regards to:

a) the fact that this wasn't disclosed at the inspection
b) the fact that I dispute the damage
c) whether or not this could actually be classed as wear and tear - how long is a glass ceramic hob supposed to last?


I'm just wondering whether or not we can claim this as "wear and tear" and say that we should only be liable for part of the costs, or whether the fact that he is claiming it is damaged/broken means that we're fully liable?

Also, I'm reluctant to contact the insurance company and accept blame without first attempting to at least dispute the damage.

Any advice? Should I just accept blame, contact the insurance and move on?
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  #106  
Old 07.03.2013, 09:46
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

Question - did you crack it or was it that way when you moved in? If it was already cracked that should have been spotted and listed on the pre-moving inspection paperwork. If it was, then you're not liable and he's trying it on.
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  #107  
Old 07.03.2013, 09:49
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

Contact your insurance company and give them a copy of the final protocol which should confirm no crack was in the hob at inspection. Why fight when they have loss adjusters to do just that?

Can you confirm that there was no crack in it? Do you have pictures?

I had a situation a few years ago where something small was found after the fact and they supplied pictures. It was low-cost and I was claiming on the insurance anyway so.....I let it go. If I was sure it was not damaged, I'd dispute.
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  #108  
Old 07.03.2013, 09:50
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

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Question - did you crack it or was it that way when you moved in? If it was already cracked that should have been spotted and listed on the pre-moving inspection paperwork. If it was, then you're not liable and he's trying it on.
As far as I know it wasn't cracked. As far as I know - it isn't cracked now! We used it everyday, never had a problem, never dropped anything on it, and I simply can't believe that it is cracked to be honest.

I've decided to go and inspect it for myself before admitting any fault. If there is a crack - then we will have to accept blame, if not - then what are my options for fighting it?
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  #109  
Old 08.03.2013, 02:06
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

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Hello,

I was wondering if someone can give any advice regarding a situation I now find myself in. We had our leaving inspection one week ago - all seemed to go OK, the landlord spotted a couple of things that were broken (small stuff such as the magnetic holder for the shutter handle).

Anyway, one week later we get a registered letter informing us that the glass ceramic hob has a crack in it and that it must be replaced. Therefore, can we contact our insurance company immediately and claim it so that they can send an assessor round to check and confirm. The landlord has already informed us that he had a technician out to confirm that it needs to be replaced and the cost is X.

Can anyone advise where I stand with regards to:

a) the fact that this wasn't disclosed at the inspection
b) the fact that I dispute the damage
c) whether or not this could actually be classed as wear and tear - how long is a glass ceramic hob supposed to last?


I'm just wondering whether or not we can claim this as "wear and tear" and say that we should only be liable for part of the costs, or whether the fact that he is claiming it is damaged/broken means that we're fully liable?

Also, I'm reluctant to contact the insurance company and accept blame without first attempting to at least dispute the damage.

Any advice? Should I just accept blame, contact the insurance and move on?
The cooktop cannot be used with a crack, so yes, it must be replaced.
Your participation in the costs depends on how old the cooktop is. The older it is, the less you pay. The insurance companies all have a copy of the table outlining the lifespan of items. For a cooktop it is 15 years. Your share of the costs will be covered, less your deductible.

But, I don't understand how this was not seen at the handover. This was not a "hidden defect." If you attended the inspection, and the report was completed with no crack in the cooktop, I do not see how you can be responsible. If you handed the keys back, then anyone could have entered the apartment afterwards and dropped something on the cooktop.

If the inspection report was signed off at the handover by all parties, and you returned the keys, I would not accept responsibility.
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  #110  
Old 08.03.2013, 08:35
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

This is our point; we have used the hob every day for the previous 5 years. I have never noticed a crack (honestly). The inspection seemed to go fine, we signed for minor things we accepted culpability for, handed over the keys and left. A week later, we receive this letter informing us that the landlord had inspected further and found this defect, thus requiring a replacement. Anyway, we have asked him for an appointment so we can see said crack.......





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The cooktop cannot be used with a crack, so yes, it must be replaced.
Your participation in the costs depends on how old the cooktop is. The older it is, the less you pay. The insurance companies all have a copy of the table outlining the lifespan of items. For a cooktop it is 15 years. Your share of the costs will be covered, less your deductible.

But, I don't understand how this was not seen at the handover. This was not a "hidden defect." If you attended the inspection, and the report was completed with no crack in the cooktop, I do not see how you can be responsible. If you handed the keys back, then anyone could have entered the apartment afterwards and dropped something on the cooktop.

If the inspection report was signed off at the handover by all parties, and you returned the keys, I would not accept responsibility.
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  #111  
Old 08.03.2013, 09:10
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

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This is our point; we have used the hob every day for the previous 5 years. I have never noticed a crack (honestly). The inspection seemed to go fine, we signed for minor things we accepted culpability for, handed over the keys and left. A week later, we receive this letter informing us that the landlord had inspected further and found this defect, thus requiring a replacement. Anyway, we have asked him for an appointment so we can see said crack.......
Normal protocol at the leave handover includes a detailed checklist like the one when you moved in, whereby at the end of it both parties sign and date it. Was this done, and you have a signed copy on date of handover? If not you may be stuck. Next time, remember you can bring a rep. from the tenants association if you are a member, it often goes much smoothly and less chance of messing about.
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  #112  
Old 08.03.2013, 09:19
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

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Normal protocol at the leave handover includes a detailed checklist like the one when you moved in, whereby at the end of it both parties sign and date it. Was this done, and you have a signed copy on date of handover? If not you may be stuck. Next time, remember you can bring a rep. from the tenants association if you are a member, it often goes much smoothly and less chance of messing about.
Yep, we've got that. All signed and dated as per the normal practice. He went through everything with a clipboard and a beady eye (I was half expecting white gloves), so to suddenly find a crack in the hob which renders it defective is a surprise to say the least.

I was just curious what grounds he has to do this after we have a signed protokoll saying that everything is OK? After all - as stated above - anyone could have caused this damage.
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  #113  
Old 08.03.2013, 09:30
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

Honestly, drop this problem into the hands of your insurance and stress that you've been using the hob for 5 years and there was no damage that you could see nor was it noted on the signed protocol of which you will supply them a copy.

My guess is that someone's after an insurance-funded upgrade but I could be cynical.
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  #114  
Old 08.03.2013, 09:36
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

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Honestly, drop this problem into the hands of your insurance and stress that you've been using the hob for 5 years and there was no damage that you could see nor was it noted on the signed protocol of which you will supply them a copy.

My guess is that someone's after an insurance-funded upgrade but I could be cynical.

Why push this on to insurance (giving them extra costs) if it doesn't need to be done - if he has the signed paperwork saying everything was in order, I would think that is enough, is it not?
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  #115  
Old 08.03.2013, 09:41
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

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Why push this on to insurance (giving them extra costs) if it doesn't need to be done - if he has the signed paperwork saying everything was in order, I would think that is enough, is it not?
I would not be wasting my time with this.

You have insurance and it will either be a claim or they'll be told to take a hike. Since insurance companies see this all the time, involving them is absolutely right.

Insurance isn't just about paying out a claim. I told my insurance company a few years ago to play hardball with a bozo in Airolo who effectively took my car captive and charged "rent" to store it. I had a crash on the highway due to black ice and the cops cancelled the recovery service of my insurance and got their mate to come and get my car.....he then wanted to do the repairs. It took about 3 weeks to sort and the insurance company was excellent.
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  #116  
Old 08.03.2013, 10:10
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

Well, I don't see how he could have inspected further if you weren't present at the time so how could he notice it later? Question: are you moving elsewhere in Switzerland or moving out of the country? If you're leaving completely, dump it in the lap of your insurers and let them sort it out for you. You have enough to do without putting up with extra hassle.

As 1SIX1 says, handing it over to your insurers anyway might be the best because any arguing over whether there's a crack or not between you and the landlord would probably delay getting your deposit back.
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  #117  
Old 08.03.2013, 10:19
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

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Well, I don't see how he could have inspected further if you weren't present at the time so how could he notice it later?
it does not matters.
What matters is what the law is saying.

And as for a fact the law is allowing a delay to claim for damages that have not been noticed during the "handout". But it's only what "could have not been found using usual checks".

So basically it seems that the guy is relieved of any responsibilities as I don't see how they could not check the obvious visible "cooker".


Art. 267 a

II. Checking the status of the thing and notice to the tenant

1 When returning, the lessor must check the condition of it and immediately notify the tenant of the defects which it meets.

2 If the landlord fails to do so, the tenant is relieved of any liability, unless either of defects that could not be found using the usual checks.

3 If the landlord later discovered defects of this kind, he must immediately notify the tenant.


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Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)
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  #118  
Old 08.03.2013, 10:29
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

If you give the problem to the insurance and they pay for a new cooking hob, and you will usually pay the first Fr 200,-- of any insurance claim. The claim will be for breakage, but will take into account the fair wear and tear, so the claim might have a value of CHF 500,-- with you paying CHF 200,--

There should be an arbitration court in your area for addressing grievances, this would be a cheaper solution. Ask at your Gemeinde. If you lose at the court you can still claim on the insurance. Your hand over certificate is a legal document, look after it carefully!

Alternatively join the Tenants Association, they can better advise you.
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  #119  
Old 09.03.2013, 00:40
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

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Yep, we've got that. All signed and dated as per the normal practice. He went through everything with a clipboard and a beady eye (I was half expecting white gloves), so to suddenly find a crack in the hob which renders it defective is a surprise to say the least.

I was just curious what grounds he has to do this after we have a signed protokoll saying that everything is OK? After all - as stated above - anyone could have caused this damage.

The landlord does not get a second chance at this. If he missed it, too bad for him.

Don't bother arranging a visit, you don't need to. And don't waste the insurance company's time either. They will ask for the protokoll and if on there the cooktop is fine, then there is nothing to discuss.

I am guessing your landlord is a private owner. They can be impossible.

Are you 100% certain your inspection report (Protokoll) makes no mention of a problem with the cooktop at all?
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  #120  
Old 10.03.2013, 10:09
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Re: Damage deposits on moving out

I would write back to the landlord that there was no crack when you moved out. The next step would be the landlords. I would not take any active steps myself, only answer the landlords. In the end you most probably will get your deposit back the latest one year after moving out.

I would not involve the insurance. If the landlord is wrong then he should not get paid.
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