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Old 22.04.2011, 13:54
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Help buying a house

Hi

We try to buy a flat and we really like it this place, we visit 2 months ago a there were many people in there.

The bank said is that ok if we make an offer on it and we offer first 10% less than the asked price but seems the offer was refused, after that I got crazy and send the guy an offer of the full price because he said that the flat is gone, however a few weeks later he called my husband and said that our offer has been accepted.

Long story short, we meet the guy and sign an accordance doc with 50.000 chf and we discover that the "Keller" have some "illegal" people living in there that plus is very messy and seems that someone is using the garage which is from the whole building as a private use.

We are really worry and don't know what to do now, if we don't buy we can loose all the 50,000 or we can buy a property with future problems "inclusive"

Ps really desperate
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Old 22.04.2011, 14:03
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Re: Help buying a house

Have or are you going to seek legal help on this issue?
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Old 22.04.2011, 14:11
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Re: Help buying a house

Legally, you will not lose the 50kchf. Even though it may say so in the depot document that you signed, you can take the real estate agent to court for the money as a last ressort but you will get it back in the end.


It is usually not advisable to take over tenants if there are issues already stemming up before the sale is close. If you are planning to stay there as your own home, you will have certain rights but it may take longer than you expect to get full possession of the flat, so its good to sort it out before the final sale.

Since your situation seems more complex given the few highlights that you mentioned, suggestion from isha on legal advice is a sound one.
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Old 22.04.2011, 19:53
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Re: Help buying a house

Maybe my wife was a bit misunderstood here.
The illegal tenants are in the basement - we are fortunately 4 floors up.
It is a bit scary that the communal areas are in such a state but it will not affect our rights to possess our flat which I believe will be empty come 1st September.
The roof needs to be re-insulated - esp. to keep out the heat in the summer, does anyone have experience with doing this kind of work? Is it normal to share the costs with the other owners? Would we have a chance to maybe put in some additional windows or would Stadt Zurich not allow us to do anything without planning permission.
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Old 22.04.2011, 20:09
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Re: Help buying a house

If you are buying this flat/have bought it, then you really should get hold of the laws concerning rights and duties of the owners of owner-occupied accomodation.

Usually there is an annual meeting (perhaps called by the firm who are paid by the owners to 'organise things' and arrange work to be carried out and bills paid) where decisions are made concerning replacements, improvements etc. When the decision is made, who pays how much is, I believe, then decided according to Wertquota. If you also own a basement work-room and have a large flat for example, I think you'll find yourself paying a larger part of roof repairs than someone with a smaller flat and no extra rooms.


As far as I know, nothing can be done which alters the outside look of the building (balcony excepted) without agreement of the other owners. I cannot remember whether it has to be unanimous or a certain proportion of the owners. It is all quite complicated. The town will of course also have a say in any 'improvements' involving architectural changes. We are in Switzerland you know.

I'll have a dig through Admin and see if I can find the basic rulings which will apply.
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Old 22.04.2011, 20:19
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Re: Help buying a house

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we discover that the "Keller" have some "illegal" people living in there
They're not terrorists, are they?
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Old 22.04.2011, 20:43
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Re: Help buying a house

Quote:
They're not terrorists, are they?
Don't be so fast. They could be prostitutes. Either way, sounds like some interesting times.
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Old 22.04.2011, 21:16
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Re: Help buying a house

back on-topic.

Here's the link to the Hauseigentümerverband - unfortunately only in German here.
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Old 23.04.2011, 11:26
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Re: Help buying a house

Not terrorists or prostitutes, they are migrant workers from Hungary. Normally in the basement there are some communal rooms, but these guys have taken over these rooms it seems. They have a fridge and cooker in the corridor and a shower / bathroom so quite a nice setup for them I guess. Cant find anything in the paperwork about the communal rooms in the basement so I guess we don't have any right to them...
Another strange thing about this place the parking place and garden are given in "personaldiestbarkeit" to some previous owner till 2022.
Will speak next week to the Lawyer who represents most of the other owners about the roof and expect the worst - you want us to help pay for that no you have to pay us to put up with the inconvenience.
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Old 23.04.2011, 11:35
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Re: Help buying a house

This all sounds very, very weird to me and very un-Swiss.
If there are 'communal' rooms on a lower floor, I'd be surprised if you haven't 'bought' your right to use them (and have a financial responsibility for their upkeep etc). In this house, 'ownership' is written down in the Grundbuchamt, all official, and all alterations to the legal documents expensive.
If there has been a decision to rent rooms to 'outsiders' this should be documented too.

I shall be VERY interested to hear how this all comes out.
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Old 23.04.2011, 17:34
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Re: Help buying a house

Sounds like a huge mess and you should get out of it if at all possible. The owners need to sort all this stuff out before they sell it.
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Old 23.04.2011, 18:47
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Re: Help buying a house

Walk away from this deal. Walk away now.
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Old 23.04.2011, 19:56
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Re: Help buying a house

My guess is that the owners were selling it because they realised what a complicated situation they had to deal with in the block. I also think that whoever originally overbid you realised the problems and withdrew their offer, which is why the seller came back to you at a later date. If I were you I would avoid buying in a situation like the one you describe.

As Longbyt mentioned, owning a co-property can be quite complicated and you need to check the rules relating to your particular property. One thing is absolutely sure is that no work like roof insulation or adding windows on the property can be done without the other owners' consent because you share the ownership of the fabric of the building with the other owners. All decisions have to be made at the annual meeting and whether the decision has to be unanimous or by a majority it can really be quite difficult (sometimes impossible) to get things you might want done decided in your favour.
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Old 23.04.2011, 20:27
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Re: Help buying a house

To continue:- If you are thinking of buying, you have to be shown a copy of the house rules (reglement) and you also need to be shown the minutes of the last few annual meetings . The latter are really important because you can usually tell from them what work needs to be done on the building and also whether the other owners are likely to cause problems. For example, there could be owners who consistently refuse to agree on necessary work or deal with current problems (like the ones you mentioned).
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Old 25.04.2011, 19:52
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Re: Help buying a house

It's _NEVER_ a good idea to rush buying a property.
Even more so in Switzerland, where you cannot (and will simply not be able to) just "flip" it.

Did you meet your wife in Las-Vegas and marry her spot-on there, too?

Before you buy an old building, it should be inspected by some expert who can then tell you how much more money you have to invest to get it upto standard.
If you don't follow all the advice in this thread (and other related threads), you will find yourself in a world of pain.
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Old 25.04.2011, 19:57
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Re: Help buying a house

Get some proper legal advise asap, really that's the only answer. Find out exactly what you have committed to buy and see a lawyer
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Old 26.04.2011, 00:00
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Re: Help buying a house

The present owners should have copies of the annual report and minutes of the yearly meeting which will be issued by who ever administers the building
In it there will be details of every franc paid for everything, which owners have paid and any issues that have come up and the outcome of the discussion.
You must ask to examine this but as others have said - walk away...
Please let us know how you get on.
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Old 26.04.2011, 00:07
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Re: Help buying a house

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Maybe my wife was a bit misunderstood here.
The illegal tenants are in the basement - we are fortunately 4 floors up.
So, call the police and get them evicted.

Illegal is illegal.

What is there to question here?

Tom
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Old 28.04.2011, 01:26
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Re: Help buying a house

The agent told us the people in the basement are renting the rooms legally and according to the Grundbuchamt these rooms are owned by another person. Seems we misheard illegal becomes legal. Regarding the yearly meeting they never had one so far, but resolved matters as the need arose. I suppose we shall proceed after confirming all this.
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Old 28.04.2011, 09:22
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Re: Help buying a house

Anheli, have you spoken to the Grundbuchamt yourself to verify this?

I only raise that point because - from experience - some agents and sellers have been known to lie through their teeth, even when 'quoting' officialdom. I have learned that when it comes to legal issues surrounding the sale of a property, I need to personally verify everthing I have been told, preferably in writing on official stationary, signed by the department head.

Because such things have a way of coming back to haunt you.

Were it me, given the oddness of the situation, I would speak to the Grundbuchamt myself.

Good luck with your purchase.
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