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Old 26.05.2011, 10:28
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Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

This evening we have our annual owner-occupier (PPE) meeting. Our PPE comprises 2 buildings in an L-shape, in which the space is filled with a 3-tiered garden. Unfortunately, for some reason, the garden is not fenced off, nor are there any "Private" sgns. The entrances of the neighbouring appartment blocks (not part of the PPE) open directly onto "our" garden area, meaning that all the kids from this block play in and around the PPE garden, sometimes with kids who live in the PPE (including one of ours), but most of the time not. Whilst the kids are not naughty and are actually pretty nice, they are bloody noisy, especially if there are 15 or so of them. This effects us probably more than most as our balcony is directly over a terrace area with a wide covering porchway, which acts as a cavern, resonating any sound.
Whilst we are not against children playing and accept they make some noise, we are a little agrieved that their parents can sit in peace on their terraces and balconies (which face onto their own, fenced garden area), while we have to tolerate the noise from their little darlings. What we want is a small, maybe even token, fence around out garden area, with "private property" signs to dissuade them from just heading straight out of their front doors onto our property.
I suppose my question is; are we being unnecessarily unfair? And what is the best way to approach this with our fellow PPE members? I know our neighbour above has also expressed her feelings about this, but some of the other apprtments are hardly affected by the resonant sound. Often we can hardly hear the TV without closing the windows, let alone sit on the balcony for a quiet glass or two. I've even heard (though I'm not sure of the validity of the comment) that the kids have been told NOT to play football in their own garden, but to go "next door".
Some advice on diplomacy would be welcome.
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Old 26.05.2011, 12:38
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

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This evening we have our annual owner-occupier (PPE) meeting. Our PPE comprises 2 buildings in an L-shape, in which the space is filled with a 3-tiered garden. Unfortunately, for some reason, the garden is not fenced off, nor are there any "Private" sgns. The entrances of the neighbouring appartment blocks (not part of the PPE) open directly onto "our" garden area, meaning that all the kids from this block play in and around the PPE garden, sometimes with kids who live in the PPE (including one of ours), but most of the time not. Whilst the kids are not naughty and are actually pretty nice, they are bloody noisy, especially if there are 15 or so of them. This effects us probably more than most as our balcony is directly over a terrace area with a wide covering porchway, which acts as a cavern, resonating any sound.
Whilst we are not against children playing and accept they make some noise, we are a little agrieved that their parents can sit in peace on their terraces and balconies (which face onto their own, fenced garden area), while we have to tolerate the noise from their little darlings. What we want is a small, maybe even token, fence around out garden area, with "private property" signs to dissuade them from just heading straight out of their front doors onto our property.
I suppose my question is; are we being unnecessarily unfair? And what is the best way to approach this with our fellow PPE members? I know our neighbour above has also expressed her feelings about this, but some of the other apprtments are hardly affected by the resonant sound. Often we can hardly hear the TV without closing the windows, let alone sit on the balcony for a quiet glass or two. I've even heard (though I'm not sure of the validity of the comment) that the kids have been told NOT to play football in their own garden, but to go "next door".
Some advice on diplomacy would be welcome.
I personally consider kid noise the least bothering among all. Dog, TV, stereo are the worst. I would just give the kids a break...
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Old 26.05.2011, 12:47
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

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I personally consider kid noise the least bothering among all. Dog, TV, stereo are the worst. I would just give the kids a break...
Shrieking, roller-blading, ball bouncing right under our balcony? Seriously, you'd have to experience it to hear what it's like. Not to mention the damage to the grass and bushes, which we end up paying for.
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Old 26.05.2011, 12:55
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

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Shrieking, roller-blading, ball bouncing right under our balcony? Seriously, you'd have to experience it to hear what it's like. Not to mention the damage to the grass and bushes, which we end up paying for.
You're not talking about your avatar, are you?
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Old 26.05.2011, 13:05
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

I agree with selimhan. And yes, I am currently experiencing all the things you mention below (and more) and I honestly don't mind one bit. To me there are not many things nicer in this world than kids playing. If they do it in my back yard - even nicer.


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Shrieking, roller-blading, ball bouncing right under our balcony? Seriously, you'd have to experience it to hear what it's like. Not to mention the damage to the grass and bushes, which we end up paying for.
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Old 26.05.2011, 13:13
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

My previous ground-floor apartment had a tiny 2x3 grass area and a tree.

Lack of any other green areas in the street meant the tree was the de facto neighbourhood playground, even before I moved in.

I thought back to my own childhood and simply kept the curtains drawn and also the front windows closed if it got too bad.
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Old 26.05.2011, 13:20
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

Everything in moderation I say. It sounds like its excessive and neighbours asking them to play "next door" because they dont want to bear the brunt of the noise and minimising wear and tear on parts of their property, when you have to pick up the slack of repairing the garden doesnt seem quite fair. Bloody selfish and anti social.

The issue is whether you have the "right" to erect "privat" signs on that grass patch, and your trump card will be the cost of repairs to the grass patch and bushes.

There is no need to beat around the bush (no pun intended). Fact of the matter is, this really isnt their problem at the moment and being too nice/diplomatic will not drive the message across that it IS bothering you. Simply bring up the fact and concerns that the plants and grass are getting damaged due to excessive activities by the kids and ask them what their suggested solutions are.

Take pictures if necessary to prove your point.

Either suggest that they share the extra repair costs and you put up with the noise (which I dont think people will be happy to do) OR put up private signs if you are able to. Good luck.
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Old 26.05.2011, 13:23
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

If they have an area to play in that "belongs" to their houses they should play there.

Regardless of whether you like the sound of something, be that kids, heavy metal, fast cars or classical music, you have to respect that some people will be disturbed by it and have the right not to be subjected to it.

If that means kids have to play somewhere else that is how it goes.
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Old 26.05.2011, 13:23
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

Oh well, it's a moot point now, meeting is cancelled .
Thanks for all your input btw.
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Old 26.05.2011, 13:25
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

Is there any way you could fence yours off, too? I can't really see the layout in my mind right now.
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Old 26.05.2011, 13:32
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

Some folk don't object, some do.

We also 'entertained' a crowd of youngsters from another 'area' for some time. For the owner occupiers of the flats, it just wasn't fun to hear the football being kicked against their garage doors over and over again every afternoon and evening. The language used by the children was appalling and their rubbish was left to be removed by the caretaker we were paying, the grass was turned into a mud track by the 'mountain bike practice' over our grassy areas.

Fortunately, this took place some distance from us and the grass in front of our flat is NOT the designated play area for the children who live in these 'blocks' either, so I send the children (and adults who want to exercise their dogs there!) away immediately if they seem to be 'settling in'. The grass is used by both adults and children as a short cut from the school, the local shop and the bus stop and there are no objections to this even though most of the people strolling across the lawn don't live here. But if the children start to play and you let them stay there once, you can spend every afternoon for the next week explaining why, when one afternoon you ignored three little girls sitting quietly in the shade of a tree, you now object to two football teams screaming at each other all evening and using the large laurel bush directly in front of your balcony as their private WC.

Often it is a case of the thin end of the wedge and you need at least one person who is prepared to make themselves unpopular as soon as the trouble starts. It's a role that suits me quite well after working on here!
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Old 26.05.2011, 14:18
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

I'm of the 'live and let live' mindset...

We live in a Quartier where the houses are built around a common courtyard area; of course this area is where the little kids play and the bigger kids hang out. My house sits on a boulder wall which to a child's eye makes a natural football goal. I had planted the wall in Polsterpflanzen - and yes, the vertical garden and outdoor light fixtures met an early demise from footballs being kicked against them.

But kids will be kids - and thank doG for that!

Rather than get upset, I simply stopped planting the wall. Anything that survives football season is a plus. On my property I installed an extra-sturdy light fixture. When the Quartier lights - which are uglier than sin - get broken, I look at that as an opportunity to try to convince the association to choose a better design next time.

My only interference is that I don't want the children climbing the wall to retrieve their balls - for safety's sake. So I spoke to them directly, asked them to come and get me when needed and I will retrieve the ball. I think by keeping it friendly the kids are just a tad more respectful.

To my mind, there is no sound so wonderful as that of children having fun - we hear it all too seldom here. Our neighborhood would be all the poorer if we lost that joyful noise.

I guess what I am saying is: try to find a compromise. We were all kids once.
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Old 26.05.2011, 14:19
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

Get yourself down to Landi .....

owner-occupier-ppe-meeting-noisy-kids-24488_ufa-r_04-11470x352.jpgowner-occupier-ppe-meeting-noisy-kids-24614_ufa-r_05-11470x352.jpg

Harsh, some may think .... but, this is Switzerland, where the child is king - and the weak and/or liberal parents (at least where I am - which is strange as in all other aspects they're uptight conservatives) can't say "no", or want to restrict their child's natural development (BS)- as long as (when it comes to ball games) it's n.i.m.b.y.

So, a few years ago, all the local lads used to play wild roller hockey in the street by my house because the parents of these kids didn't want their cars getting banged, and shooed them away from the places where they lived. But it was fine for my car and metal garden shed, where I keep my bikes to get banged or scrap about under the car with their stick to retrieve the ball.

Not enough parental guidance in respect for others and their property - and when I questioned the father of the "ape" who lived opposite, he just shrugged his shoulders and said "kinder musst spielen" (a little later he had to cough up to replace one of my windows that his boy and others had broken in their snowball fight - accident I doubt).
Fortunately they've grown beyond this stage or moved away.

[I could rant on with more stories and my thoughts beyond the causes, etc., but ....]
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Old 26.05.2011, 14:32
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

* Dont say anything at the meeting
* Wait until tomorrow
* Put your own fence
* Enjoy 1 year without noisy kids
* Let them come to you in the next meeting
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Old 26.05.2011, 14:39
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

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I'm of the 'live and let live' mindset...

We live in a Quartier where the houses are built around a common courtyard area; of course this area is where the little kids play and the bigger kids hang out. My house sits on a boulder wall which to a child's eye makes a natural football goal. I had planted the wall in Polsterpflanzen - and yes, the vertical garden and outdoor light fixtures met an early demise from footballs being kicked against them.

But kids will be kids - and thank doG for that!

Rather than get upset, I simply stopped planting the wall. Anything that survives football season is a plus. On my property I installed an extra-sturdy light fixture. When the Quartier lights - which are uglier than sin - get broken, I look at that as an opportunity to try to convince the association to choose a better design next time.

My only interference is that I don't want the children climbing the wall to retrieve their balls - for safety's sake. So I spoke to them directly, asked them to come and get me when needed and I will retrieve the ball. I think by keeping it friendly the kids are just a tad more respectful.

To my mind, there is no sound so wonderful as that of children having fun - we hear it all too seldom here. Our neighborhood would be all the poorer if we lost that joyful noise.

I guess what I am saying is: try to find a compromise. We were all kids once.
When we were kids razzing round on our bikes, kicking balls and generally making a din outside, our parents frequently called us over to tell us to keep it down a bit ("it's Sunday evening" or "Mrs So-and-so has just had a baby" or "Mr Grumpysod has just got out of hospital").

They also came down hard on us if we damaged anything or trampled over gardens and whatnot.

I think today everyone is so concerned with getting kids out to play at whatever cost (because nobody wants them growing up with a life of TV and computer games), we forget to teach them to respect their outdoor surroundings and neighbours in general.

Letting them kill all your plants and smash your outdoor lights without so much of a word to the parents is not teaching kids lessons they need to observe when they are adults and have left the bubble of their housing estate.
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Old 26.05.2011, 14:40
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

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I'm of the 'live and let live' mindset...

But kids will be kids - and thank doG for that!

To my mind, there is no sound so wonderful as that of children having fun - we hear it all too seldom here. Our neighborhood would be all the poorer if we lost that joyful noise.

I guess what I am saying is: try to find a compromise. We were all kids once.
Odd as it may sound, I, too, like kids a lot. Over the years I've spent a lot of my free time with other people's children. I love to hear children having fun. I don't love having children screaming their heads off and using bad language two meters from my balcony when I am trying to work.
Sure, we were kids once. And sure we didn't ride our bikes over other people's lawns and we didn't leave our crisp packets and our PET bottles on other people's lawns either. And if we were asked to quieten down a bit, we did.

Compromise would be great, but honestly, in our situation here, I cannot see one. The three little girls one day and the football team the next which I mentioned above were only a slight exaggeration.
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Old 26.05.2011, 14:49
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

Why do we all forget so quickly what it was like whwn we were kids and told we can't play here we can't play there. Please give the kids a break. It would be a sad World without the noise of kids having fun!
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Old 26.05.2011, 15:18
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

Give kids break? While their own folks don't and bark them off to some other people's property to damage it?

I have worked with kids for almost two decades and know, one thing is letting live another is giving them boundaries. They need boundaries. They cannot play and destroy other people's stuff. I would make very sure they get an ear full when I see them once making a mess. The second time I film them with a camera, very ostentatiously. I take the film to local parents, ask some of the kids or younger kids if they can identify somebody, can go to nearest local school and police, to report vandalism and take receipts with me to show how much it is. I'd fence off anything I can, if I don't want to bear some extreme noise, and I have seen kids doing some extreme things.

Usually, there are plenty of suitable play areas not far away from people's houses. Not all yards are meant to be destroyed by careless kids. Let them play, sure, but let them not be disrespectful and destructive. They have playgrounds for that.
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Old 26.05.2011, 15:33
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

I was a kid once. I know the shit I did. I know how much pain I gave my grandma because I ruined her precious expensive flowers. And I wish my grandma had told me right there that what I was doing was wrong so I knew my boundaries instead of just suffering in silence.

Kids are very nice, but they can get extremely loud while playing. If no one is there to keep a check on them, a kids playground will turn into a cacophonie. If you are trying to relax on a nice evening, kids screaming and heavy football shots against a wall might not be what you want to hear.

No matter how much you love children, extreme noise (which we all, who were once children, know is possible with only 3 kids) can become psycological torture. If, as the OP mentioned, most of this kids actually have other places to play closer to their own homes, the whole thing becomes redundant.

If it is your private ground, do fence it if you want. If the children come to play even with the fence, call them and explain politely to them they should not play there anymore unless they can keep it down and don't ruin the property. Try to get another meeting scheduled as soon as possible and express your feelings in a polite way. I am sure people will understand.
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Old 26.05.2011, 15:34
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Re: Owner-occupier (PPE) meeting and noisy kids

I never broke anything like a light or a fence, I only broke my own stuff and chafed my own knees. Kids now seem super-aggressive and don't give a damn about other people's stuff. So really, they're tiny, badly behaved adults with a free pass. And lousy parents who will defend their every action to boot. By the way, those bushes need watering, no? My dad gets rid of noisy kids on his property by spraying them with his garden hose, regardless of the time of the year...
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