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Old 18.07.2011, 18:40
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Buying a house, getting the 20%

Hello again,

My wife and I have just discussed the possibility of buying a house. I am currently paying 2800.- for a beautiful new flat in Lenzburg.

We saw some newly built houses at just over 500'000.-
The mortgages start from 1000.- per month according to Homegate but will give or take a few bob.

Regarding the 20% deposit I would require;
Does anybody know if I could take a 100'000.- loan over 5 years which would be paid back at around 2000.- per month.

This means that for the first 5 years i am paying around 3000.- which is pretty much what i pay at the moment, then thereafter only 1000.-

Makes sense to me as its a long term investment, but will it work? Will i get a loan for that amount for that reason?

Cheers for any advice
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Old 18.07.2011, 18:49
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

My understanding is that you can't take a loan for the 20% unless it is secured.

Last edited by Odile; 18.07.2011 at 19:16.
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Old 18.07.2011, 18:56
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

Are the houses already built and do they have everything you need in them? I'm asking because you often will spend another 10% on alterations or necessary upgrades (I stupidly stuck to some of the standard specifications, thinking the architect thought it through - now I have a shower I can't bend down in) and then there are a few costs that will hit you which you don't anticipate. Just something to consider.

As for getting the loan, it's unlikely in my view, as the bank will need some kind of guarantee that you will pay it back, other than the house. Usually people fiddle around with their pension money to make the 20% but those minimum payment rules are in place to stop people forfeiting like they did in the US. When you get a credit card it says that giving the credit must not lead to the "Überschuldung" of the individual, I reckon it will be what you'll get told when they say no. But to be honest, unless there is someone working in the loans department of a bank on the forum, I would ask the bank directly. I know that my parents borrowed some cash from family to make up the missing bit but they paid that back before even moving in. That was when foreign currency was worth more than now but maybe that is an option for you?
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Old 18.07.2011, 19:02
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

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Are the houses already built and do they have everything you need in them? I'm asking because you often will spend another 10% on alterations or necessary upgrades (I stupidly stuck to some of the standard specifications, thinking the architect thought it through - now I have a shower I can't bend down in) and then there are a few costs that will hit you which you don't anticipate. Just something to consider.

As for getting the loan, it's unlikely in my view, as the bank will need some kind of guarantee that you will pay it back, other than the house. Usually people fiddle around with their pension money to make the 20% but those minimum payment rules are in place to stop people forfeiting like they did in the US. When you get a credit card it says that giving the credit must not lead to the "Überschuldung" of the individual, I reckon it will be what you'll get told when they say no. But to be honest, unless there is someone working in the loans department of a bank on the forum, I would ask the bank directly. I know that my parents borrowed some cash from family to make up the missing bit but they paid that back before even moving in. That was when foreign currency was worth more than now but maybe that is an option for you?
I have already taken out my pension money to start a business so thats not an option.

The houses are not built yet. How about this I tell the builders to stop building, for example kitchen, bathroom, floors, etc. Hopefully enough to take the value of the house to 400'000. Then i take a loan for the building work, some credit firms will pay out for upgrades to houses as they know its a secured investment which adds value to the house. I also heard that the bank will accept the deposit in the form of building work and not just cash. Maybe someone on the forum could clear that up for me....
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Old 18.07.2011, 19:11
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

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I have already taken out my pension money to start a business so thats not an option.

The houses are not built yet. How about this I tell the builders to stop building, for example kitchen, bathroom, floors, etc. Hopefully enough to take the value of the house to 400'000. Then i take a loan for the building work, some credit firms will pay out for upgrades to houses as they know its a secured investment which adds value to the house. I also heard that the bank will accept the deposit in the form of building work and not just cash. Maybe someone on the forum could clear that up for me....
Afraid not - I have just been through something similar. My new house is being built whilst i'm still in my old one (where the equity is) and I had to find the deposit. I even tried to secure the deposit on the new house against the equity on the old house but that wasn't acceptable unless there was actually a contract in place for somebody to buy it. Tried stock options as security....no good either.

We got there in the end, but it was a struggle and that was by persuading the bank to take a lower deposit (10%) but don't think thats very common.

The only advise I can give is to talk to the smaller, less blue chip banks - CS and UBS are less flexible that the smaller ones (Valiant etc)

Sorry.....but given that the nature of the global crisis was banks exposing themselves to unsecured and bad debt against housing, you picked the wrong time to try it
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Old 18.07.2011, 19:11
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

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I have already taken out my pension money to start a business so thats not an option.

The houses are not built yet. How about this I tell the builders to stop building, for example kitchen, bathroom, floors, etc. Hopefully enough to take the value of the house to 400'000. Then i take a loan for the building work, some credit firms will pay out for upgrades to houses as they know its a secured investment which adds value to the house. I also heard that the bank will accept the deposit in the form of building work and not just cash. Maybe someone on the forum could clear that up for me....
Ok, how do I put this nicely...

Some people break up over the stress of building an apartment, never mind a house. If you want to go for a non-standard procedure, this will only be more stressful. Check out who is building the place, for instance, I would not describe the experience with my building contractor (Priora AG) as a pleasant one. So even if it is maybe a viable plan in theory, the reality will drive you nuts. Also the builder has contracts for the kitchen etc., so he is not interested in selling you a "Rohbau". One lady in my building did this and she currently has no electricity, no kitchen, no nothing, one month after she got the keys, as they wouldn't let her do work while the other builders were around.

Building something in this country has become a major headache as the call for ever cheaper labour never mind the qualifications has become louder. My father would have preferred to pay a bit more for fully trained people and not have the headaches we've had. Sadly, building contractors only want profits and the good workmen tend to be fully booked for years (!) in advance.

Frankly, if your financial situation is less than stable, I wouldn't buy a house, because the bank always wins in the end. Sorry to be such a spoilsport but I've just moved into a new build and I am utterly exhausted after managing about 80% of the whole process. Thankfully I didn't have the financial headache as well, but the person who did was close to backing out entirely because they got so fed up with all the silliness that goes on.

Last edited by Kittster; 25.07.2011 at 19:52. Reason: Clearer wording
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Old 18.07.2011, 19:20
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

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Frankly, if your financial situation is less than stable, I wouldn't buy a house,
The problem is, i could save for years to get the deposit, but during these years i am paying rent which technically i could be saving.

My finances are financially stable, but saving up 100'000 is a lot to ask alongside paying a rent in a nice appartment. Financially, i would be better off doing it this way and it makes sense to me, but getting that cash is the only problem.

Maybe these "Sofort Kredit" firms may do it, but at a much higher rate, may still be worthwhile looking into as i see no disadvantages at all as long as i can keep up with payments.

Other option is Miet/Kauf, but i very rarely see them advertised
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Old 18.07.2011, 19:24
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

Actually, thinking back.....there was a suggestion of a "sister bank" of CS who gave unsecured loans for short periods at high interest rates (c 10% which for here is loan shark territory!), but it was when we were nearing desparation to not lose the new place and CS suggested it but in a way that was a bit disapproving and we found a better answer so didn't investigate it and don't know who they are.

Instead of being all negative though and trying to help now....if its just a case of cash, you could always try and shop around for a few credit cards at introductory rates.....thats how Duncan Bannatyne started his business empire!
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Old 18.07.2011, 19:33
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

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Actually, thinking back.....there was a suggestion of a "sister bank" of CS who gave unsecured loans for short periods at high interest rates (c 10% which for here is loan shark territory!), but it was when we were nearing desparation to not lose the new place and CS suggested it but in a way that was a bit disapproving and we found a better answer so didn't investigate it and don't know who they are.

Instead of being all negative though and trying to help now....if its just a case of cash, you could always try and shop around for a few credit cards at introductory rates.....thats how Duncan Bannatyne started his business empire!
Thats actually a great idea, but with 10 cards maxed at 10 grand each, whats the minimum payment on each???? doubt it will be below 2000.-
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Old 18.07.2011, 19:42
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

I agree with one thing, rent is pretty much dead money. My wife and I lived in a 50m apartment for nearly 3 years. Ok it was the bottom of a house but quite small and pokey but the rent was only 700 a month. It was cramped and small, not enough room to swing a cat, let alone bring up 2 children. But, after 3 years of scrimping on accommodation which is so expensive over here, we had enough for the deposit for our place....
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Old 18.07.2011, 22:41
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

Firstly, I know the attraction of home ownership, both from a financial and emotional perspective, but a few points:

The OP wants to borrow money to make the down payment. You do realise you will have to declare that loan to the mortgage company, who I would expect would be then much less likely to approve a loan. Remember, there are laws here which impose a duty of care in making affordable loans. It's not so much about the company that fronts up the 10% or whatever, it's more about getting the mortgage approved after that fact.

The OP also states that his pension has been cashed in to start his own business and that he is trying to take the best part of 100k loan with no collateral, and a further 400k mortgage - and goes on to state that "My finances are financially stable"...hmmm.....

Rent is dead money - yes, so are interest payments. Of course, interest payments at the moment seem very attractive because of low rates, but it may not always be that way. I know you can fix the rates, but consider what you will do once the fixed term is up - will you be able to pay off a substantial amount of the capital, or will you be forced to take another similar sized loan, at maybe a much less advantageous rate. At least with rental, if your circumstances change downsizing is a relatively easy process - in an overheated housing market with rising interest rates, and especially one which is historically quite illiquid, it could be the ruin of you financially.
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Old 18.07.2011, 23:36
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

As it goes 500k is a fairly good price for a single family home these days. Have you got any of the deposit?
A while back we borrowed 25g (mother in law) for the deposit on a flat which we rented immediately. We told the bank we would renovate it for 25g and asked if they could up the overall mortgage price. Then we paid back the loan.
I was very worried about the reaction when I told them we had used the money but hadn't renovated 6 months or so later.
But it all went well in the end.
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Old 19.07.2011, 10:42
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

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Ok, how do I put this nicely...

Some of the people in my building almost broke up over the stress of building an apartment, never mind a house. If you want to go for a non-standard procedure, this will only be more stressful. Check out who is building the place, for instance, I would not touch anything built by my building contractor (Priora AG) again. So even if it is maybe a viable plan in theory, the reality will drive you nuts. Also the builder has contracts for the kitchen etc., so he is not interested in selling you a "Rohbau". One lady in my building did this and she currently has no electricity, no kitchen, no nothing, one month after she got the keys, as they wouldn't let her do work while the other builders were around.

Building something in this country has become a major headache as the call for ever cheaper labour never mind the qualifications has become louder. My father would have preferred to pay a bit more for fully trained people and not have the headaches we've had. Sadly, building contractors only want profits and the good workmen tend to be fully booked for years (!) in advance.

Frankly, if your financial situation is less than stable, I wouldn't buy a house, because the bank always wins in the end. Sorry to be such a spoilsport but I've just moved into a new build and I am utterly exhausted after managing about 80% of the whole process. Thankfully I didn't have the financial headache as well, but the person who did was close to backing out entirely because they got so fed up with all the silliness that goes on.
Careful now Kittster, your bad experiences are not always the case. Yes, to build you need to be very involved, a lot, and watch every detail but then why expect that you wouldn't need to? After all, a house or apartment is often the biggest investment people will make so it's worth the time and effort to guide the build during the project.

Also - the bank wins, but so can the purchaser. Renting gets you a roof over your head but if you can't save due to high rents, in the end you have nothing to show for the money you've spent on rent.

Now, in this OP's case - too much risk! You already have your pension tied up in your business. You want a loan (for which you have to pay interest) as deposit on a house for which you'll need a mortgage, for which you'll also have to pay interest. And for the timeframe during which you should own property here (at least 5 -10 years due to prohibitive capital gains tax) the interest rates will go up.
You may be able to afford it all today but could you do so if the interest rates doubled or trebled?
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Old 19.07.2011, 11:10
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

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Careful now Kittster, your bad experiences are not always the case. Yes, to build you need to be very involved, a lot, and watch every detail but then why expect that you wouldn't need to? After all, a house or apartment is often the biggest investment people will make so it's worth the time and effort to guide the build during the project.
Sadly, friends of mine have echoed my experiences and the general consens was "well, that's new build for you". If you have your own project, where you get to pick the workmen, then it'll probably be different but also cost more in the region of 1 mio.
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Old 19.07.2011, 11:28
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

As has been mentioned many times on here - the Swiss housing market is different to the rest of the western world.

The Swiss buy a house - live in it - die in it - will it to their children - who either renovate it and live in it - or sell it!!

m3 for m3 there is very little difference in a new house to one that is renovated to new house standards.

Interest rates are set to rise in Switzerland - with the base rate possible heading as high as 6%. The SNB is worried about the amount of mortgage lending, especially away from CS/UBS/Kantonal, where the 80/20 rule is being applied in a very flexible way. The SNB will not tolerate a property market collapse - and will do everything it can to ensure the steady market rise is maintained (in line with inflation).

I'd be very cautious about overstretching to get on the property ladder in Switzerland.
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Old 19.07.2011, 11:36
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

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The OP also states that his pension has been cashed in to start his own business and that he is trying to take the best part of 100k loan with no collateral, and a further 400k mortgage - and goes on to state that "My finances are financially stable"...hmmm.....

Rent is dead money - yes, so are interest payments. Of course, interest payments at the moment seem very attractive because of low rates, but it may not always be that way. I know you can fix the rates, but consider what you will do once the fixed term is up - will you be able to pay off a substantial amount of the capital, or will you be forced to take another similar sized loan, at maybe a much less advantageous rate. At least with rental, if your circumstances change downsizing is a relatively easy process - in an overheated housing market with rising interest rates, and especially one which is historically quite illiquid, it could be the ruin of you financially.
On the other side of the coin, my neighbour has just sold their flat after three years for 400,000CHF more than they paid for it.

Okay, they had to take the 40% hit on the profit as they're leaving the country but that still leaves a nice wad of profit that they wouldn't have got if they were renting.
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Old 19.07.2011, 12:08
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

yep, that sounds like a nice sustainable orderly market...no bubble there....
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Old 19.07.2011, 13:43
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

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As has been mentioned many times on here - the Swiss housing market is different to the rest of the western world.

The Swiss buy a house - live in it - die in it - will it to their children - who either renovate it and live in it - or sell it!!

m3 for m3 there is very little difference in a new house to one that is renovated to new house standards.

Interest rates are set to rise in Switzerland - with the base rate possible heading as high as 6%. The SNB is worried about the amount of mortgage lending, especially away from CS/UBS/Kantonal, where the 80/20 rule is being applied in a very flexible way. The SNB will not tolerate a property market collapse - and will do everything it can to ensure the steady market rise is maintained (in line with inflation).

I'd be very cautious about overstretching to get on the property ladder in Switzerland.

Where oh where did you get this little gem from oh dodgy one, you are making me very nervous I would have thought the SNB would try to avoid further strengthening the chuff any more than what it is...
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Old 19.07.2011, 13:54
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

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yep, that sounds like a nice sustainable orderly market...no bubble there....
Well, it all averages out and it's only a few places that are seeing very good returns.

The key phrase when buying is, as always, "Location, location, location".
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Old 19.07.2011, 13:59
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Re: Buying a house, getting the 20%

you guys should have all used an agent .......
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