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-   -   Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures (https://www.englishforum.ch/housing-general/124484-direct-repayment-vs-3a-pillar-let-s-write-down-some-figures.html)

rootkit 05.09.2011 16:24

Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
So, which one is better? Direct repayment or a 3a Pillar?

Being in the situation where I have to decide soon for my new mortgage, I wrote down some figures to help me understand which one of the two methods is the best, in terms of money of course.

I designed a standard case with easy numbers:

Price: CHF 1,250,000.00
Own founds: 20%
Mortgage: CHF 1,000,000.00


Salary 1: CHF 75,000.00
Salary 2: CHF 125,000.00
Total Salary: CHF 200,000.00

Repayment: 1% (CHF 10,000.00)
Interests: 10-years fixed at 3%


We assume double earners (family with husband and wife), and 1% Repayment, which seems to be the standard. The interests plan is a 10-years fixed at 3%. We also assume a taxation of 20%.

Scenario 1: direct repayment

Total interests: CHF 286,500.00
Tax saved on interests: CHF 57,300.00

TOTAL scenario 1: CHF 229,200.00



Scenario 2: 3a Pillar

For this scenario I assumed that both earners are contributing to the Pillar (doubling the TAX relief cap) and a Pillar interest rate of 1.750% (which is BCV interest at the moment of writing). I also didn't include in the calculatation the Taxes needed at the end of the 10 years to use the 3a Pillar savings for repayments, as I don't have the figures.

Total interests: CHF 300,000.00
Taxes saved on interests: CHF 60,000.00
Taxes saved on 3a Pillar: CHF 20,000.00
3rd Pillar matured interests: CHF 10,148.44

TOTAL scenario 2: CHF 209,851.56


Conclusions

Scenario 2 is around CHF 20,000 cheaper than scenario 1.

I have tried many scenarios, changing the Repayment percentage many time. It looks like, no matter what, the 3a Pillar is always more convenient than the direct repayments, even if it's capped at ~6650 CHF per person, because of the matured interests and the tax savings.

This is somewhat counter-intuitive, because I was sure that with a repayment of 3% or more, it would have been more convenient to go for a direct repayment.

Thoughts?

fatmanfilms 05.09.2011 16:35

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
You could do the 3rd pillar as well as direct payment, which will give you more assets in your retirement.

Shakey 06.09.2011 08:41

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
You will anyway have to pay down your 2nd mortgage at a certain rate anyway, no? Also, you haven't considered the Eigenmietwert in your calculations. At current returns on the 3a, my calculations come out a lot closer to even for either scenario on our house. We tended toward direct repayment, except it can bite you if you need the cash for changing homes; bridge financing seems to be something the banks don't like here so it can be a challenge if you have a few 100K extra tied into your house.

ipoddle 06.09.2011 09:46

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
Very interesting.. and.. just out of interest... lenders here will combine 100% of both incomes to ascertain the total amount they'll lend ?

dodgyken 06.09.2011 11:24

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 1327654)
You could do the 3rd pillar as well as direct payment, which will give you more assets in your retirement.

I agree. 3rd pillar is a must - even if you are repaying a mortgage. It shouldn't one or the other.

Reducing your mortgage debt is a good thing - and as soon as possible. It is OK to carry some - but if you can drop the 2nd mortgage as soon as you can you reduce your higher interest exposure - and most importantly ensure that 3rd pillar investments aren't tied to your property.

Phil_MCR 06.09.2011 11:25

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
with the low interest rates, it seems to make sense. let's say:

mortgage rate 3%
pillar 3a rate 2%

there is a 1% disadvantage to indirect amortisation. however:

the mortgage rate is tax deductible (let's assume 25% tax rate) so works out at 2.25% net rate for a 0.25% disadvantage.

since you get a tax deduction for the 3A contribution, you save another 1,662 chfs.

so it seems that it's a no-brainer, right? or am i missing something?

Phil_MCR 06.09.2011 11:28

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodgyken (Post 1328523)
I agree. 3rd pillar is a must - even if you are repaying a mortgage. It shouldn't one or the other.

Reducing your mortgage debt is a good thing - and as soon as possible. It is OK to carry some - but if you can drop the 2nd mortgage as soon as you can you reduce your higher interest exposure - and most importantly ensure that 3rd pillar investments aren't tied to your property.

i am waiting for the postfinance man to call and discuss the 3a option.

my idea was to put the 6k each year into the pillar 3a. since my libor mortgage is around 1% and the 3a pays 2%, it makes sense to keep these separate.

however, my plan is that if rates go up, then i would take the funds out of the 3a and use it to pay off the mortgage.

any flaws in this plan?

rootkit 06.09.2011 12:32

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
I realized I did a small mistake in my previous calculation, a I didn't calculate 3a Pillar interests properly.

Moreover, I called the bank to clarify how the indirect repayment works for high percentages, and they confirmed me that if the repayment amount is more than the Pillar cap, then the excess will go as direct repayment.

This of course doesn't make any difference if the repayment is 1%, since it's still below the Pillar cap (for 2 earners). However I'm surprised to notice that the 3a Pillar still wins.

This time I will post the full tables. Apologies for the poor format, I couldn't find any suitable way to display them.

Senario 1: direct repayment

Year.....Interests.........Left to pay........Tax saved interests
1st......CHF 30,000.00.....CHF 990,000.00.....CHF 6,000.00
2nd......CHF 29,700.00.....CHF 980,000.00.....CHF 5,940.00
3rd......CHF 29,400.00.....CHF 970,000.00.....CHF 5,880.00
4th......CHF 29,100.00.....CHF 960,000.00.....CHF 5,820.00
5th......CHF 28,800.00.....CHF 950,000.00.....CHF 5,760.00
6th......CHF 28,500.00.....CHF 940,000.00.....CHF 5,700.00
7th......CHF 28,200.00.....CHF 930,000.00.....CHF 5,640.00
8th......CHF 27,900.00.....CHF 920,000.00.....CHF 5,580.00
9th......CHF 27,600.00.....CHF 910,000.00.....CHF 5,520.00
10th.....CHF 27,300.00.....CHF 900,000.00.....CHF 5,460.00
TOTAL:...CHF 286,500.00.......................CHF 57,300.00


Scenario 2: 3a Pillar

Year .. Interests ...... Left to pay ........3a pillar ...... TAX saved pillar . Tax saved interests .. 3a Pillar Interests .. 3a Pillar total
1st ... CHF 30,000.00 .. CHF 1,000,000.00 .. CHF 10,000.00 .. CHF 2,000.00 ..... CHF 6,000.00 ......... CHF 175.00 ........... CHF 10,175.00
2nd ... CHF 30,000.00 .. CHF 1,000,000.00 .. CHF 10,000.00 .. CHF 2,000.00 ..... CHF 6,000.00 ......... CHF 178.06 ........... CHF 20,353.06
3rd ... CHF 30,000.00 .. CHF 1,000,000.00 .. CHF 10,000.00 .. CHF 2,000.00 ..... CHF 6,000.00 ......... CHF 356.18 ........... CHF 30,709.24
4th ... CHF 30,000.00 .. CHF 1,000,000.00 .. CHF 10,000.00 .. CHF 2,000.00 ..... CHF 6,000.00 ......... CHF 537.41 ........... CHF 41,246.65
5th ... CHF 30,000.00 .. CHF 1,000,000.00 .. CHF 10,000.00 .. CHF 2,000.00 ..... CHF 6,000.00 ......... CHF 721.82 ........... CHF 51,968.47
6th ... CHF 30,000.00 .. CHF 1,000,000.00 .. CHF 10,000.00 .. CHF 2,000.00 ..... CHF 6,000.00 ......... CHF 909.45 ........... CHF 62,877.92
7th ... CHF 30,000.00 .. CHF 1,000,000.00 .. CHF 10,000.00 .. CHF 2,000.00 ..... CHF 6,000.00 ......... CHF 1,100.36 ......... CHF 73,978.28
8th ... CHF 30,000.00 .. CHF 1,000,000.00 .. CHF 10,000.00 .. CHF 2,000.00 ..... CHF 6,000.00 ......... CHF 1,294.62 ......... CHF 85,272.90
9th ... CHF 30,000.00 .. CHF 1,000,000.00 .. CHF 10,000.00 .. CHF 2,000.00 ..... CHF 6,000.00 ......... CHF 1,492.28 ......... CHF 96,765.18
10th .. CHF 30,000.00 .. CHF 1,000,000.00 .. CHF 10,000.00 .. CHF 2,000.00 ..... CHF 6,000.00 ......... CHF 1,693.39 ......... CHF 108,458.57
TOTAL: .CHF 300,000.00 ..................... CHF 100,000.00.. CHF 20,000.00 .... CHF 60,000.00 ........ CHF 8,458.57


Data table per repayment

Repayment .. Direct ........... Indirect
1% ......... CHF 229,200.00 ... CHF 211,541.43
2%
......... CHF 218,400.00 ... CHF 194,914.11
3%
......... CHF 207,600.00 ... CHF 184,114.11
4%
......... CHF 196,800.00 ... CHF 173,314.11
5%
......... CHF 186,000.00 ... CHF 162,514.11
6%
......... CHF 175,200.00 ... CHF 151,714.11
7%
......... CHF 164,400.00 ... CHF 140,914.11
8%
......... CHF 153,600.00 ... CHF 130,114.11
9%
......... CHF 142,800.00 ... CHF 119,314.11
10% ........ CHF 132,000.00
... CHF 108,514.11

So the 3a Pillar is always convenient if the taxes paid when using the amount are below the fork between the two values. For a 2% repayment, the fork is around CHF 24,000 which is for sure more than any taxes you could possibly pay.

rootkit 06.09.2011 12:36

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 1328531)
my idea was to put the 6k each year into the pillar 3a. since my libor mortgage is around 1% and the 3a pays 2%, it makes sense to keep these separate.

however, my plan is that if rates go up, then i would take the funds out of the 3a and use it to pay off the mortgage.

any flaws in this plan?

I think it's a good idea. I'm doing the same, except that I'm going for a long term fixed rates. I guess it really depends on the amount of the mortgage.

Phil_MCR 06.09.2011 12:42

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rootkit (Post 1328641)
I think it's a good idea. I'm doing the same, except that I'm going for a long term fixed rates. I guess it really depends on the amount of the mortgage.

i have a 2/3 10 year fixed rate and 1/3 LIBOR.

i intend to repay the LIBOR and let the SNB inflate away the fixed interest debt. given their stupidity today, it looks like it will happen.

Shakey 06.09.2011 13:46

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
Just curious, what is the taxation rate when you pull money out of a 3a and use it to directly to pay down a mortgage? Is it taxed at all? I'm absolutely ignorant of this aspect.

dodgyken 06.09.2011 13:55

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
3a should be paid up (in full) - and then your mortagage repayed IMHO.

Now here is where it gets tricky - your 3rd pillar is subjected to tax when withdrawn - it counted (I believe - but have to double check) as income - but at a reduced rate. IE the 3rd pillar is a deferal of tax.

What you do, is you have multiple 3rd pillar - upto around 30,000chf per account. When you withdraw - you draw down one per year - minimising your income.

I am not sure how this works with repayment of mortgage - and whether tax is applicable. That is one for your mortgage/finance advisor/google.

CH_Me 06.09.2011 14:14

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
If your repayments are less than the Pillar 3 cap, you could also just pay the minimum contractual yearly mortgage repayment into your mortgage pledged Pillar 3 and the remainer into your own Pillar 3. That way, any extra Pillar 3 isn't pledged to the bank and is clearly yours at retirement.

We pay the mortgage repayments indirectly into our Pillar 3 but leave it sitting there and not paying off the mortgage.

CH_Me 06.09.2011 14:17

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakey (Post 1328778)
Just curious, what is the taxation rate when you pull money out of a 3a and use it to directly to pay down a mortgage? Is it taxed at all? I'm absolutely ignorant of this aspect.

You don't withdraw it, just pledge that Pillar 3 account it to the bank.

rootkit 06.09.2011 14:40

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarieZug (Post 1328815)
We pay the mortgage repayments indirectly into our Pillar 3 but leave it sitting there and not paying off the mortgage.

It's a smart move and I'm considering that myself. My only concern is that in this way when you have to renegotiate the interests, you still have the full mortgage. And who knows what the interests will be.

Of course you could then use the 3a Pillar to pay off some of the mortgage, but this takes us back to the initial question.

jaudi 06.09.2011 15:17

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarieZug (Post 1328820)
You don't withdraw it, just pledge that Pillar 3 account it to the bank.

That is different.

If you withdraw you are charged a tax (the withdrawn amount is taxed at the income tax rate applicable to 1/10th of that amount*, in isolation of any real income) and you then use the withdrawn amount to pay off a chunk of the loan. Your loan is now smaller and thus interest payments are reduced. This is in effect some way between indirect and direct amortisation.

*note the calculation is specific to your local authority (gemeinde)

What you are referring to does not reduce your loan size directly, but acts as security that you will eventually reduce it. It really is the indirect amortisation referred to above. Throughout the period you continue to pay interest on the whole loan amount. It may be that for this security the lender will discount slightly their margin on the loan - that is possibly something you can negotiate.

Jaro 06.09.2011 16:04

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
speaking of margins and the interest rates....has anyone been able to reduce the quoted interest rate (except maybe for Libor)? Looking at dividing my future mortgage between Libor, Umwelt (ZKB product) and Fixed and perhaps Starter (ZKB product). I do not want to fix for too long max 7 years at the present moment. The way I look at what the bank actually makes is the libor + ,7 or .8 rest (outside Libor) is pure profit. Was anyone able to negotiate the rates at all? was told this is normal practice and expected just not sure what you can actually get. Are we talking .2 - .5 or full point?
Heard of stuff around 1st payment being covered by the bank specials etc..

Any tips would be welcome. Meeting the bank next week to get final financing commitment.

Phil_MCR 06.09.2011 16:08

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaro (Post 1329055)
speaking of margins and the interest rates....has anyone been able to reduce the quoted interest rate (except maybe for Libor)? Looking at dividing my future mortgage between Libor, Umwelt (ZKB product) and Fixed and perhaps Starter (ZKB product). I do not want to fix for too long max 7 years at the present moment. The way I look at what the bank actually makes is the libor + ,7 or .8 rest (outside Libor) is pure profit. Was anyone able to negotiate the rates at all? was told this is normal practice and expected just not sure what you can actually get. Are we talking .2 - .5 or full point?
Heard of stuff around 1st payment being covered by the bank specials etc..

Any tips would be welcome. Meeting the bank next week to get final financing commitment.

speak to different banks. when you go to one saying, ZKB offered me this, they will reduce.

dodgyken 06.09.2011 16:16

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
When we fixed - I used the libor curve - and then did my own calc - looking at total interest over the fixed period.

Libor was +65bps (client margin)
Fixed was +65bps (client margin) + 25bps (fixed margin)

For 1/4% I was happy to fix a chunk - even if the curve hasn't move as predicted and our effective fixed margin has been higher.

A fixed rate is a simple interest rate swap - where the premium is included in the swap and not paid up front.

Jaro 06.09.2011 16:41

Re: Direct Repayment vs 3a Pillar - let's write down some figures
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodgyken (Post 1329075)
When we fixed - I used the libor curve - and then did my own calc - looking at total interest over the fixed period.

Libor was +65bps (client margin)
Fixed was +65bps (client margin) + 25bps (fixed margin)

For 1/4% I was happy to fix a chunk - even if the curve hasn't move as predicted and our effective fixed margin has been higher.

A fixed rate is a simple interest rate swap - where the premium is included in the swap and not paid up front.

dodgy, i get part of what you are saying here....so you fixed a larger chunk for a 1/4% discount? I'm thinking of going libor for 1/3 of the total and rest will be between special programs offered by ZKB (Umwelt, Starthypothek and Fixed)...


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