Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 23.01.2012, 10:51
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,243
Groaned at 118 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Quote:
View Post
I wont debate about the contract, the unfair or fair fee, whatever...

But i'm surprise the guy got 2 offers for a flat at the same time!!!
It's Fribourg, not Zürich or Geneva, there's shedloads of available properties.

To the OP, Foncia Fribourg were our Regie until 2 years ago, and the PPE administrator for the appt we purchased in 2009, until they were sacked by the PPE at the beginning of 2011. We found them unhelpful, unreliable, untrustworthy and downwright negligent in both capacities.
Just so you have an idea abou the professionalism of whom you're dealing with, but I'm sure you're aware of that already.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 23.01.2012, 10:51
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 114
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 35 Times in 19 Posts
juliamargaret has made some interesting contributions
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

My husband and I are looking for a flat at the moment, and this is definitely standard practice. Many apartments have a LOT of interest- apparently the one we are leaving got 40 applications after just one viewing. They just don't want their time wasted- I understand that.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 23.01.2012, 10:56
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 16,491
Groaned at 579 Times in 454 Posts
Thanked 24,679 Times in 9,935 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Quote:
View Post
To be honest, although I think the OP was a "princess" by choosing something else when they kind of agreed, I still think the agency are abusing.

Honestly, how many request they have for 1 flat? the cost of advertising, etc...? It's spread, does not matters if 1 person or 100 person applies. Visits? they organize visits anyway and it's their job.

I bet they've already many other possible applicants, for the same flat.

And as they signed nothing they've no agreement...

They received a contract.

They then asked for the move in date to be extended with a new contract.
(obviously at some loss of revenue to the landlord during this interim period between the original start date and the new one).

And all this has taken a few weeks which were weeks when the flat could have been advertised. And a contract was created, and then amended

So, even more loss of revenue.

Obviously, the landlord shouldn't have called the OP names but the OP ought to man up and understand why the landlord had a right to be upset.

If I was the landlord I'd be livid, too.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 23.01.2012, 10:58
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 4,518
Groaned at 491 Times in 320 Posts
Thanked 4,099 Times in 1,952 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Quote:
View Post
They received a contract.

They then asked for the move in date to be extended with a new contract.
(obviously at some loss of revenue to the landlord during this interim period between the original start date and the new one).

And all this has taken a few weeks which were weeks when the flat could have been advertised. And a contract was created, and then amended

So, even more loss of revenue.

Obviously, the landlord shouldn't have called the OP names but the OP ought to man up and understand why the landlord had a right to be upset.

If I was the landlord I'd be livid, too.
correct but the fee was to the agency...not the landlord...
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 23.01.2012, 11:05
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 5,514
Groaned at 123 Times in 108 Posts
Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,737 Posts
Shorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Quote:
View Post
absolutely.
Absolutely... indeed.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 23.01.2012, 11:07
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Zurich City
Posts: 136
Groaned at 5 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 83 Times in 43 Posts
Swiss_Can has made some interesting contributions
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

my father owns a house with 8 apartments and I take care whenever there is an apartment to rent -
you have no idea how many people think they can just sign a legal contract to be "on the safe side" and if they find something better they just "cancel" their contract and sign the new one - or even better, sign the new one before the old one is cancelled.
For the owner this means: setting up an ad, handing out forms to 100 applicants, spending a lot of time going through all the application forms, retreiving additional information (financial situation etc), then writing/phoning 99 out of 100 applicants to turn them down and setting up a contract for the new tenants.
This costs a lot of time and money, and if I have to do this all over again just because someone liked another flat better I think I have every right to ask for a fee - regardless of wether I am a private owner or a bigger company. A contract is a contact, you can't just say "uh sorry, found something better, deal with it".

Someone wrote making a decision in favour of an apartment is an important decision and therefore one should be allowed to back out after having signed a contract if they find something better - I say, since this is such an important decision why don't people WAIT and make sure the apartment they are signing for is REALLY 100% what they want?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Swiss_Can for this useful post:
  #27  
Old 23.01.2012, 11:09
Vlh22's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK, formerly Vaud
Posts: 1,319
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 1,983 Times in 642 Posts
Vlh22 has a reputation beyond reputeVlh22 has a reputation beyond reputeVlh22 has a reputation beyond reputeVlh22 has a reputation beyond reputeVlh22 has a reputation beyond reputeVlh22 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

I'm puzzled by this, as I thought this forfeit was standard practice, which you are informed about on your application form.

Whenever I've applied for an apartment, on the initial application form there has been a clause which says something along the lines of:

"I apply to rent this apartment and agree to accept this apartment if it is offered to me. I agree to pay the agency the sum of xxx if I back out of the agreement after the contract has been written and sent (note: not when it is signed, but when it has been sent)."

In other words, all the agencies I've applied to operate this penalty system, but they make it very clear that they will charge you if you pull out after you've been offered and accepted an apartment and the contract has been drawn up, and by signing the application form you agree to this.

OP, did you sign something like that on your original application by any chance?

Last edited by Vlh22; 23.01.2012 at 11:10. Reason: Clarity
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 23.01.2012, 11:12
bigblue2's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glarus
Posts: 8,082
Groaned at 484 Times in 403 Posts
Thanked 14,715 Times in 5,780 Posts
bigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

and another landlord who now won't rent to foreigners.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 23.01.2012, 11:18
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 4,518
Groaned at 491 Times in 320 Posts
Thanked 4,099 Times in 1,952 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Quote:
View Post
my father owns a house with 8 apartments and I take care whenever there is an apartment to rent -
you have no idea how many people think they can just sign a legal contract to be "on the safe side" and if they find something better they just "cancel" their contract and sign the new one - or even better, sign the new one before the old one is cancelled.
For the owner this means: setting up an ad, handing out forms to 100 applicants, spending a lot of time going through all the application forms, retreiving additional information (financial situation etc), then writing/phoning 99 out of 100 applicants to turn them down and setting up a contract for the new tenants.
This costs a lot of time and money, and if I have to do this all over again just because someone liked another flat better I think I have every right to ask for a fee - regardless of wether I am a private owner or a bigger company. A contract is a contact, you can't just say "uh sorry, found something better, deal with it".

Someone wrote making a decision in favour of an apartment is an important decision and therefore one should be allowed to back out after having signed a contract if they find something better - I say, since this is such an important decision why don't people WAIT and make sure the apartment they are signing for is REALLY 100% what they want?
Agreed and understood.
However here they haven' signed the contract...they haven't "comited" legally...
So the fee appears more as a "punishment" as opposed to a legal requirement...
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 23.01.2012, 11:22
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,243
Groaned at 118 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Quote:
View Post
and another landlord who now won't rent to foreigners.
Don't fret, Foncia will rent to ANYBODY.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 23.01.2012, 11:24
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,975
Groaned at 101 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 9,106 Times in 4,522 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Quote:
View Post
Agreed and understood.
However here they haven' signed the contract...they haven't "comited" legally...
So the fee appears more as a "punishment" as opposed to a legal requirement...
Corsebou,
I posted the law back on the previous page. Can you read that & see what you think? I know what I think it says, but I can't be 100% sure with legalese.
Thanks.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank miniMia for this useful post:
  #32  
Old 23.01.2012, 11:33
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 4,518
Groaned at 491 Times in 320 Posts
Thanked 4,099 Times in 1,952 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Quote:
View Post
Corsebou,
I posted the law back on the previous page. Can you read that & see what you think? I know what I think it says, but I can't be 100% sure with legalese.
Thanks.
Hm I'm not too sure it says "I. Droits du créancier" which a creancier is someone you owe money...someone who own a créance...

So I don't think it's related...

We would need to find the relevant law/contract for that tenancy agreement...


I can't find quickly the "droit du bail" text.

But I found on ASLOCA:

Peut-on renoncer à un nouveau bail après l’avoir signé ?

NON ! Un contrat de bail est valable dès que le bailleur et le locataire ont apposé leurs signatures si le contrat est passé par écrit. Il ne faut pas confondre avec le délai de réflexion institué pour la vente par acomptes ou le démarchage à domicile. Une fois le bail signé, il est trop tard. Seule solution : présenter à la régie un locataire de remplacement, disposé à reprendre le bail aux mêmes conditions. Pour la procédure à suivre, demandez conseil à l'ASLOCA.


Which basically tends to indicate that it's valid AFTER having signed it... (both signatures)...

So it's not valid before signatures....
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 23.01.2012, 11:36
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,975
Groaned at 101 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 9,106 Times in 4,522 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Quote:
View Post
Hm I'm not too sure it says "I. Droits du créancier" which a creancier is someone you owe money...someone who own a créance...

So I don't think it's related...

We would need to find the relevant law/contract for that tenancy agreement...
That's what I was thinking. Who is the "creditor" in this case? But it's in the right place. Let me find the original link and you can see the context. And I believe this is the art. 160 referenced in the PDF posted above, which is the law of contracts I believe. You can see article 19 mentioned in the PDF as well. The PDF is in German though.... I got here from a link on the ASLOCA site.

ETA: here it is. It's article 160 of this: http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/rs/c220.html
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 23.01.2012, 11:49
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 4,518
Groaned at 491 Times in 320 Posts
Thanked 4,099 Times in 1,952 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Quote:
View Post
That's what I was thinking. Who is the "creditor" in this case? But it's in the right place. Let me find the original link and you can see the context. And I believe this is the art. 160 referenced in the PDF posted above, which is the law of contracts I believe. You can see article 19 mentioned in the PDF as well. The PDF is in German though.... I got here from a link on the ASLOCA site.

ETA: here it is. It's article 160 of this: http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/rs/c220.html
I think anyway that one needs to read the contract before signing it, and can refuse to sign if they're not satisfied... That's more or less what is written in your link:

1 Si les parties se sont mises d’accord sur tous les points essentiels, le
contrat est réputé conclu, lors même que des points secondaires ont été
réservés


So I really think without signature it worth nothing...


But in that case, I think the landlord/agency won't have difficulties to find a tenant so the "hassle" is minimal. (even though it's fribourg I doubt there's lack of tenants) ... I would still apologies to the landlord and offer him something, letting him know that I know I don't have to pay the fee but I'm making a move to end that conflict... I don't know, 50chf, or a chocolate box, or whatever... although the guy might be even more pissed off, so...
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 23.01.2012, 12:00
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,975
Groaned at 101 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 9,106 Times in 4,522 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Quote:
View Post
I think anyway that one needs to read the contract before signing it, and can refuse to sign if they're not satisfied... That's more or less what is written in your link:

1 Si les parties se sont mises d’accord sur tous les points essentiels, le
contrat est réputé conclu, lors même que des points secondaires ont été
réservés


So I really think without signature it worth nothing...


But in that case, I think the landlord/agency won't have difficulties to find a tenant so the "hassle" is minimal. (even though it's fribourg I doubt there's lack of tenants) ... I would still apologies to the landlord and offer him something, letting him know that I know I don't have to pay the fee but I'm making a move to end that conflict... I don't know, 50chf, or a chocolate box, or whatever... although the guy might be even more pissed off, so...

Regardless of how difficult or easy it is to find a tenant has to do with what kind of property it is. Not all properties are that easy to rent.

That's not really relevant though I don't think. I think the law also says they have a right to impose a penalty. Did you not read it like that?

Anyway! It's probably easier to go to the the ASLOCA (!) then try to work through the law text.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 23.01.2012, 12:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 4,518
Groaned at 491 Times in 320 Posts
Thanked 4,099 Times in 1,952 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Quote:
View Post
Regardless of how difficult or easy it is to find a tenant has to do with what kind of property it is. Not all properties are that easy to rent.

That's not really relevant though I don't think. I think the law also says they have a right to impose a penalty. Did you not read it like that?

Anyway! It's probably easier to go to the the ASLOCA (!) then try to work through the law text.
Yes it's better the OP goes to ASLOCA...
Not I actually did not read it like that, I understood from a few "paragraphs" in that text of law you gave, that... a "bail" (tenancy agreement) has to be made in writing, that unless signed it's not valid, etc...
I haven't clearly seen anything saying that they can put a fee...

Especially that one needs to read the contract and sign it if it accept... the simple "possession" of a contract does not implies any fees, otherwise it's like a punishment for disagreeing, and that does not seems to be in the law...

Well OP should see with pro because it's not entirely clear and subject to interpretation.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 25.01.2012, 14:19
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: fribourg
Posts: 142
Groaned at 24 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 48 Times in 38 Posts
ayemibbe is considered unworthyayemibbe is considered unworthyayemibbe is considered unworthyayemibbe is considered unworthy
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

my goodness, SOME of you people really seem to believe in feudalism and are apparently quite content to submit to serfdom or behave in the arrogant manner of the medieval sheriff representing the lord of the manor

the majority of replies here seem not to have read my original post properly at all, but this is standard practice on forums.

anyone who wants to throw their money away by paying this forfeit or actually sign a contract and move into a not ideal apartment rather than jump at the opportunity of a better deal is free to do so.

for anyone who finds themselves in the same position as me, here are the relevant articles in swiss law:

Art.19,Art. 160 and Art.256 Abs. 2 OR;ART.8 UWG

again, the link to the deciding court judgement:

http://www.mietrecht.ch/db/entscheide_show.php?id=362

( click on : ENTSCHIED ÖFFNEN)

on monday i couldn't contact the woman who'd signed the demand, was told she would be back on tuesday.

yesterday i finally got thru' to the woman who signed the letter demanding the dosh as compensation for me NOT signing the contract on a flat.

i had carefully gathered my evidence and printed out stuff from the tenants association website and a court judgement from 1993 quoting paragraph and subsection etc of the relevant laws and how the bit on the form i signed to apply for the contract where it says " if you don't sign the contract it'll cost ya 250" is totally illegal and amounts virtually to attempted fraud .

so she tells me she just got told to write the letter and she's just doing her job and doesn't know anything about laws...........

she tried to connect me to the big bosses personal assistent and then suggested i called her in 20 minutes and gave me the direct number.

so i finally got the big bosses secretary and explained the entire circumstances that led to me narrowly escaping signing their contract and getting a much nicer and cheaper place.

i quoted all my bumf again, chapter and verse and she said i should write a letter if i didn't agree with the bill.

i said, no, you write me a letter stating the legal justification for the bill and i'll be delivering my dossier to the rent tribunal office and the consumer protection television programme tomorrow, with or without your side of the story.

so in the end she said that was sorted then and i didn't need to pay.....

i replied that i needed that in writing otherwise i would be obliged to take steps in the direction of the courthouse ( these rent sessions are FREE, no costs to pay!)

so she agreed in her very sexy voice ( don't think i mentioned that yet ) to pop me a letter in the post.the moral of this story is, don't f@ck with me.

the letter arrived this morning .
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank ayemibbe for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 25.01.2012, 14:25
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: north
Posts: 6,132
Groaned at 218 Times in 138 Posts
Thanked 5,100 Times in 2,636 Posts
rob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

excellent! unfortunatley there are many on this forum that will just roll over and say things need to be paid "because it says thats what i have to do"

good to see a change of direction
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 25.01.2012, 14:29
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,243
Groaned at 118 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

Which just goes to show, just because it is "standard practice" doesn't necessarily mean it is legally binding, or even legal at all.
Good job.

(Always nice to hear Foncia getting their arses handed to them)
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 25.01.2012, 14:30
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: fribourg
Posts: 142
Groaned at 24 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 48 Times in 38 Posts
ayemibbe is considered unworthyayemibbe is considered unworthyayemibbe is considered unworthyayemibbe is considered unworthy
Re: paying for NOT signing a contract?

cheers rob, you're not wrong there.

if anyone doesn't feel up to dealing with the situation themselves i'd be happy to sort it for them for Fr.100.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fined by prospective employer for not signing work contract, is that legal? Stuttgarterin25 Employment 16 14.12.2011 09:53
Signing a housing contract - couple of questions Wisconsinite Housing in general 3 08.12.2011 23:02
signing contract in english marincica Housing in general 1 28.10.2009 06:13
Time before signing a contract 81joe81 Housing in general 10 11.02.2009 10:50
Getting out of a contract before signing the lease jjoensuu Housing in general 10 03.09.2008 20:09


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0