Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07.04.2012, 10:24
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 32
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
dehansen has no particular reputation at present
flat returned but landlord still making demands?

We gave our flat back over 3 weeks ago, but the landlord is still making demands about issues he wants fixed / corrected (most of which are not mentioned in the Übergabeprotokoll). A few of them are what I would day are "reasonable", e.g. a few things got overlooked during the cleaning, etc., and I've taken care of them without complaining. Question is, can a landlord make demands of a former tenant for issues which are not listed in the protocol, or does the protocol have "final say"? And for an item which is listed, who has final say about whether it's been acceptably resolved or not?

The protocol has a very vague entry about how we're responsible for weeding the garden, as it was deemed unacceptable at the handover. But it's not clear about who gets to decide when it's done acceptably (we've already laid out well over 1'000 CHF for gardeners for the this). With this weather and time of year, weeding in the garden is a rapidly moving target.

Another issue with the garden is that the extreme cold snap in Feb. has caused some of the shrubbery to die back, but this was not obvious when we handed the flat back, and the gardner who also looked at it said it couldn't be cut back until later, after it had a chance to re-sprout (to know how far to cut back). The landlord seems to think that I will have to pay for that, since the cold snap was during the time I lived there. Again this wasn't mentioned in the protocol.

The landlord has increased the rent by a huge amount and not surprisingly is having trouble finding a new tenant, so this could go on a long time unless we have some grounds for "drawing a line".
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07.04.2012, 10:50
jrspet's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Quaint Wädenswil, Zürich, CH
Posts: 8,149
Groaned at 27 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 7,036 Times in 3,912 Posts
jrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond repute
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Have you already reached the nearest Mieterverband for advice with your signed copy of the abnahmeprotokoll ?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07.04.2012, 10:54
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 32
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
dehansen has no particular reputation at present
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Quote:
View Post
Have you already reached the nearest Mieterverband for advice with your signed copy of the abnahmeprotokoll ?
I'm a MV member, one of their "experts" was there at the hand-back, and I'll make an appointment for the next possible time. Unfortunately that will probably take a long time as this is their busiest time of year...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07.04.2012, 11:08
dino's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,663
Groaned at 31 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,279 Times in 628 Posts
dino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond repute
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

I believe the Protokoll is what draws the line, so to speak...

about 4 years ago we handed back an apartment, and during the protokoll, agreed to pay for about chf 800 of damages / wear & tear.

the agency later came back to us about how the woman who did the protokoll was incompetent (and had since been let go), and besides they had discovered damages to the common stairwell area that the neighbors blamed on us and our bikes...

I told them to go jump; and never heard back from them again. There
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank dino for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 07.04.2012, 11:39
Sbrinz's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 12,057
Groaned at 563 Times in 354 Posts
Thanked 11,548 Times in 5,941 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

The owner, or the new tenants, have about 14 days after handover to register new complaints. Sympathy with your garden problem, the Mietverband will need to help you on this.

With the damage to the common areas, unless a police report was filed, I believe all the tenants or owners are jointly responsible for paying for any damage.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07.04.2012, 19:07
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,183
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 77 Times in 72 Posts
danny has earned some respectdanny has earned some respect
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Quote:
View Post
We gave our flat back over 3 weeks ago, but the landlord is still making demands about issues he wants fixed / corrected (most of which are not mentioned in the Übergabeprotokoll). A few of them are what I would day are "reasonable", e.g. a few things got overlooked during the cleaning, etc., and I've taken care of them without complaining. Question is, can a landlord make demands of a former tenant for issues which are not listed in the protocol, or does the protocol have "final say"? And for an item which is listed, who has final say about whether it's been acceptably resolved or not?

The protocol has a very vague entry about how we're responsible for weeding the garden, as it was deemed unacceptable at the handover. But it's not clear about who gets to decide when it's done acceptably (we've already laid out well over 1'000 CHF for gardeners for the this). With this weather and time of year, weeding in the garden is a rapidly moving target.

Another issue with the garden is that the extreme cold snap in Feb. has caused some of the shrubbery to die back, but this was not obvious when we handed the flat back, and the gardner who also looked at it said it couldn't be cut back until later, after it had a chance to re-sprout (to know how far to cut back). The landlord seems to think that I will have to pay for that, since the cold snap was during the time I lived there. Again this wasn't mentioned in the protocol.

The landlord has increased the rent by a huge amount and not surprisingly is having trouble finding a new tenant, so this could go on a long time unless we have some grounds for "drawing a line".
Which company is this ? Strange behavior from their side. Heating calculations is usually done after move out but not gardening.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07.04.2012, 19:36
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 17,983
Groaned at 286 Times in 235 Posts
Thanked 15,520 Times in 8,617 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Quote:
View Post

The landlord has increased the rent by a huge amount and not surprisingly is having trouble finding a new tenant, so this could go on a long time unless we have some grounds for "drawing a line".
You should have stuffed the landlord by finding someone to take over the flat at the existing rent. The greed of people never ceases to suprise me.
When I give up my apartment I will ask the landlord how much he wants to pay me so I don't just find a new tennant, then negociate back from there.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 08.04.2012, 07:46
lmerkel's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Corseaux
Posts: 316
Groaned at 9 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 249 Times in 114 Posts
lmerkel has an excellent reputationlmerkel has an excellent reputationlmerkel has an excellent reputationlmerkel has an excellent reputation
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Very strange. On the French side, we just gave up an apartment and we have a etat de lieu (state of the place) when you move out, usually the last day. The landlord agrees with the tenant on the condition and a paper is signed, a contract, on what is the responsibility to have fixed. Then they can not ask you after that to do anything else. We also had a cleaner prior to the etat de lieu who comes with you at the etat and if something isn't done to the landlord's specs they do it again for free. Do you not have this on the German side?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08.04.2012, 07:56
Rangatiranui's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Baden region
Posts: 2,157
Groaned at 13 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,422 Times in 1,066 Posts
Rangatiranui has a reputation beyond reputeRangatiranui has a reputation beyond reputeRangatiranui has a reputation beyond reputeRangatiranui has a reputation beyond reputeRangatiranui has a reputation beyond reputeRangatiranui has a reputation beyond repute
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Quote:
View Post
I told them to go jump; and never heard back from them again. There
Thats one option...

Our Swiss neighbour was asked to pay damages to her Swiss landlord, 2 years after vacating.

But we live in a small village, where everyone knows the colour of everyone elses washing powder.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08.04.2012, 09:43
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zurich Oberland
Posts: 524
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 470 Times in 239 Posts
woolly has an excellent reputationwoolly has an excellent reputationwoolly has an excellent reputationwoolly has an excellent reputation
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Quote:
View Post
You should have stuffed the landlord by finding someone to take over the flat at the existing rent. The greed of people never ceases to suprise me.
When I give up my apartment I will ask the landlord how much he wants to pay me so I don't just find a new tennant, then negociate back from there.
He doesn't have to accept any new tenant you find, the best you can achieve with that strategy is being released early from your notice period (potentially quite valuable anyway).
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08.04.2012, 10:24
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Albisrieden
Posts: 4,657
Groaned at 102 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 6,793 Times in 2,526 Posts
nickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Not true:

http://www.beobachter.ch/wohnen/miet...mietrecht-ist/

If you provide a replacement tenant who is able and prepared to take over the apartment at the current terms and conditions and the landlord rejects them, the outgoing tenant is freed from further responsibility.

What I don't get from the article though is the landlord rejected the woman's colleague on racist grounds - and she felt obliged to look for a new successor as she could not knowingly recommend the apartment to her colleague because of his racist tendencies.

Cheers,
Nick

Quote:
View Post
He doesn't have to accept any new tenant you find, the best you can achieve with that strategy is being released early from your notice period (potentially quite valuable anyway).
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08.04.2012, 11:03
adrianlondon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 9,212
Groaned at 171 Times in 154 Posts
Thanked 25,643 Times in 6,892 Posts
adrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Quote:
View Post
If you provide a replacement tenant who is able and prepared to take over the apartment at the current terms and conditions and the landlord rejects them, the outgoing tenant is freed from further responsibility.
Which is exactly what Rachelw said. You can't force a landlord to accept a new tenant. What will happen is the landlord rejects the tenant and you can move out early. That gets around the "I'll find a new tenant at my old cheapo rent unless you bribe me" manoeuver. Which is a pity, because I like fatmanfilm's idea.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank adrianlondon for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 08.04.2012, 11:08
sarel's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 360
Groaned at 12 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 293 Times in 160 Posts
sarel has an excellent reputationsarel has an excellent reputationsarel has an excellent reputationsarel has an excellent reputation
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Quote:
View Post
I'm a MV member, one of their "experts" was there at the hand-back, and I'll make an appointment for the next possible time. Unfortunately that will probably take a long time as this is their busiest time of year...
they will be able to answer that question on the phone. very friendly that lot.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08.04.2012, 18:28
Mrs. Doolittle's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 5,936
Groaned at 120 Times in 87 Posts
Thanked 6,935 Times in 3,279 Posts
Mrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Quote:
View Post
We gave our flat back over 3 weeks ago, but the landlord is still making demands about issues he wants fixed / corrected (most of which are not mentioned in the Übergabeprotokoll). A few of them are what I would day are "reasonable", e.g. a few things got overlooked during the cleaning, etc., and I've taken care of them without complaining. Question is, can a landlord make demands of a former tenant for issues which are not listed in the protocol, or does the protocol have "final say"? And for an item which is listed, who has final say about whether it's been acceptably resolved or not?

The protocol has a very vague entry about how we're responsible for weeding the garden, as it was deemed unacceptable at the handover. But it's not clear about who gets to decide when it's done acceptably (we've already laid out well over 1'000 CHF for gardeners for the this). With this weather and time of year, weeding in the garden is a rapidly moving target.

Another issue with the garden is that the extreme cold snap in Feb. has caused some of the shrubbery to die back, but this was not obvious when we handed the flat back, and the gardner who also looked at it said it couldn't be cut back until later, after it had a chance to re-sprout (to know how far to cut back). The landlord seems to think that I will have to pay for that, since the cold snap was during the time I lived there. Again this wasn't mentioned in the protocol.

The landlord has increased the rent by a huge amount and not surprisingly is having trouble finding a new tenant, so this could go on a long time unless we have some grounds for "drawing a line".
Hidden defects, things that could not be found or checked at the handover can be permitted.

As for the shrubs, this was a very cold winter, if they are winter hard, and are planted in the ground, and not in pots, what could you have done? At the moment a lot of people are looking at brown shrubs, it is still too early to tell whether some will come back. However, you are not the homeowner. If the owner planted shrubs and you were not advised to wrap them for the winter, I do not think you can be held responsible.

The garden should have been free of weeds at the handover inspection. If the weeds come back, if you have given back the keys and handed the house back to the owner, the weeds are now his problem, not yours.
__________________

Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Mrs. Doolittle for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 08.04.2012, 18:32
Mrs. Doolittle's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 5,936
Groaned at 120 Times in 87 Posts
Thanked 6,935 Times in 3,279 Posts
Mrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Quote:
View Post
I'm a MV member, one of their "experts" was there at the hand-back, and I'll make an appointment for the next possible time. Unfortunately that will probably take a long time as this is their busiest time of year...
If you had an "expert" there, you should not be having any further issues. Afterall, that is the point in having a professional there, the handover paperwork is signed off and all that remains to be done is setttling of invoices if there were outstanding repairs and then processing the return of the deposit.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08.04.2012, 23:20
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Albisrieden
Posts: 4,657
Groaned at 102 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 6,793 Times in 2,526 Posts
nickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Fair dos. I reread rachelw's post. Wrong end of stick and all that.

Cheers,
Nick

Quote:
View Post
Which is exactly what Rachelw said. You can't force a landlord to accept a new tenant. What will happen is the landlord rejects the tenant and you can move out early. That gets around the "I'll find a new tenant at my old cheapo rent unless you bribe me" manoeuver. Which is a pity, because I like fatmanfilm's idea.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09.04.2012, 08:55
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 32
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
dehansen has no particular reputation at present
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Quote:
View Post
The owner, or the new tenants, have about 14 days after handover to register new complaints. Sympathy with your garden problem, the Mietverband will need to help you on this.

With the damage to the common areas, unless a police report was filed, I believe all the tenants or owners are jointly responsible for paying for any damage.
Thanks Sbrinz. Do you have any further information about the "about 14 days" part? I've googled to no avail...

The landlord is a private individual (who seems pretty clueless about rental laws) and had already rejected our "Nachmieter". He's pretty sour about the fact that we were able to leave early (Nachmietergesetzt) and so is making things as difficult as possible...
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09.04.2012, 09:03
phdoofus's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: City by the Bay
Posts: 2,367
Groaned at 97 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 3,205 Times in 1,227 Posts
phdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Given the nightmare of our inspection, which I'll spare you all the story of, I can only say take pictures of anything, don't trust verbal agreements with the Swiss, and don't sign anything when they start expecting a brand new apartment when they rented you a used one. There are definitely people there who will try to take advantage of you because you are a foreigner.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09.04.2012, 11:07
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 591
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 236 Times in 146 Posts
c123 has earned some respectc123 has earned some respect
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Quote:
View Post
You should have stuffed the landlord by finding someone to take over the flat at the existing rent. The greed of people never ceases to suprise me.
When I give up my apartment I will ask the landlord how much he wants to pay me so I don't just find a new tennant, then negociate back from there.
Is that possible? That the 'nachmieter' continues to pay the old rent and not a 'new and improved' higher one?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09.04.2012, 11:25
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 17,983
Groaned at 286 Times in 235 Posts
Thanked 15,520 Times in 8,617 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: flat returned but landlord still making demands?

Quote:
View Post
Is that possible? That the 'nachmieter' continues to pay the old rent and not a 'new and improved' higher one?
If your getting out without giving notice, you have to find someone to take over at existing terms, not new inflated terms.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
landlord garden protocol




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Buying a house, but could I rent it out if I returned to the UK? reddog Housing in general 6 05.01.2012 12:05
B permit issued last year but I returned them back. Advise Please! keepsending786 Permits/visas/government 3 06.09.2010 13:23
Landlord Demands 3 months Rent Up Front ! Mrs. Doolittle Housing in general 27 11.05.2010 17:54
Making a good impression on the new landlord! IrishMammy Housing in general 6 17.02.2009 14:58
International but still Swiss thoean Introductions 6 06.08.2007 14:57


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0