Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11.04.2012, 07:31
phdoofus's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: City by the Bay
Posts: 2,367
Groaned at 97 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 3,205 Times in 1,227 Posts
phdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond repute
What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

So, after a major row with the guy who inspected our flat for our handover, we refused to sign their control document and said 'We have to leave to Zurich to go back to the US, please direct all correspondence through the management agency'. Of course, we've heard very little from them since then, despite a couple of e-mails from us. One thing that disturbs us is that they failed to give us a copy of the control document before we left so we have no guarantee that they won't go back and add things later. It's almost two weeks now and still nothing. Aren't there some legal requirements about such things and how this affects our deposit? I was already of a mind that I was going to get 'Switzerlanded' about our deposit, but it's the principle of the thing. Is it possible to, at least, keep them from accessing our deposit for costs until we reach a mutual agreement?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11.04.2012, 08:00
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,400
Groaned at 434 Times in 338 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Quote:
View Post
So, after a major row with the guy who inspected our flat for our handover, we refused to sign their control document and said 'We have to leave to Zurich to go back to the US, please direct all correspondence through the management agency'. Of course, we've heard very little from them since then, despite a couple of e-mails from us. One thing that disturbs us is that they failed to give us a copy of the control document before we left so we have no guarantee that they won't go back and add things later. It's almost two weeks now and still nothing. Aren't there some legal requirements about such things and how this affects our deposit? I was already of a mind that I was going to get 'Switzerlanded' about our deposit, but it's the principle of the thing. Is it possible to, at least, keep them from accessing our deposit for costs until we reach a mutual agreement?
We had a similar problem with a first landlady in Basel. It was a nightmare to chase her. We refused to sign her non-sense handover and we didn't hear from her. After a year, we made a request to the bank to give us back our deposit. The bank had to contact her and gave her two weeks to answer. She didn't, we got our full deposit back.

This is our story with a lousy, lazy and cheating owner who didn't bother to keep her properties in order and up to date,

They might let you wait for months if not the whole year, it is possible.

Best of luck, it is a pain.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Nil for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 11.04.2012, 10:07
Sbrinz's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 11,885
Groaned at 563 Times in 354 Posts
Thanked 11,548 Times in 5,941 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

You didn't make the handover contract with the owner, and now you are at their mercy. You can search the forum, you aren't the first to fall into this trap, http://www.englishforum.ch/search2.php?q=Deposit

The owners will now employ professional cleaners and replace anything that looks damaged and worn. They can then apply to the bank running your closed deposit account for these payments, and maybe after 12 months you will be allowed to collect what is left over.

If you had made a proper handover, all the damages would have been paid by your personal liability insurance policy, http://www.zurich.ch/site/en/priv/res/ (Privathaftpflichtversicherung) minus your "Selbstbehalt" about Fr 200,--
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11.04.2012, 20:10
Mrs. Doolittle's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Tessin
Posts: 6,136
Groaned at 122 Times in 89 Posts
Thanked 7,235 Times in 3,409 Posts
Mrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Quote:
View Post
You didn't make the handover contract with the owner, and now you are at their mercy. You can search the forum, you aren't the first to fall into this trap, http://www.englishforum.ch/search2.php?q=Deposit

The owners will now employ professional cleaners and replace anything that looks damaged and worn. They can then apply to the bank running your closed deposit account for these payments, and maybe after 12 months you will be allowed to collect what is left over.

If you had made a proper handover, all the damages would have been paid by your personal liability insurance policy, http://www.zurich.ch/site/en/priv/res/ (Privathaftpflichtversicherung) minus your "Selbstbehalt" about Fr 200,--
The funds in the bank cannot be accessed without the signatures of both parties, the account holder(s) and the landlord or his agent.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Mrs. Doolittle for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 11.04.2012, 20:36
Sbrinz's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 11,885
Groaned at 563 Times in 354 Posts
Thanked 11,548 Times in 5,941 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Quote:
View Post
The funds in the bank cannot be accessed without the signatures of both parties, the account holder(s) and the landlord or his agent.
A judge at the Schlichtungsbehörde can authorise the bank to pay the landlord. It happens all the time. That is why there is a locked in deposit.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Sbrinz for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 11.04.2012, 20:39
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

I know this is not what you'd like to hear - but by refusing to address the situation whilst in CH and getting a signed agreement- you've left wide opened for trouble. Hope it will all work out for the best.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11.04.2012, 20:41
Mrs. Doolittle's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Tessin
Posts: 6,136
Groaned at 122 Times in 89 Posts
Thanked 7,235 Times in 3,409 Posts
Mrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Quote:
View Post
A judge at the Schlichtungsbehörde can authorise the bank to pay the landlord. It happens all the time. That is why there is a locked in deposit.

But the Schlichtungsbehörde is a process that both parties participate in, and there is no judge there. They make a recommendation, that's all. It is not court.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Mrs. Doolittle for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 11.04.2012, 20:41
alanshearer's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 478
Groaned at 14 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 467 Times in 215 Posts
alanshearer has a reputation beyond reputealanshearer has a reputation beyond reputealanshearer has a reputation beyond reputealanshearer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Quote:
View Post
So, after a major row with the guy who inspected our flat for our handover, we refused to sign their control document and said 'We have to leave to Zurich to go back to the US, please direct all correspondence through the management agency'. Of course, we've heard very little from them since then, despite a couple of e-mails from us. One thing that disturbs us is that they failed to give us a copy of the control document before we left so we have no guarantee that they won't go back and add things later. It's almost two weeks now and still nothing. Aren't there some legal requirements about such things and how this affects our deposit? I was already of a mind that I was going to get 'Switzerlanded' about our deposit, but it's the principle of the thing. Is it possible to, at least, keep them from accessing our deposit for costs until we reach a mutual agreement?
The control document is not legally binding so if you sign it or not it does not mean anything. The letting agency cannot take money from deposit account, it has to be signed by both parties.

They should send you the invoices of work that was neeeded to complete the repairs etc (abrechnung) ready for the new tennants to move in. You normally have 10 days to review this and dispute any costs.

You need to send a copy of the Abrechnung to your insurers to make a claim.

The process can take from 3 months onwards. You should be advised not to pay anything until the the insurance claim is processed.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11.04.2012, 20:42
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ticino
Posts: 2,871
Groaned at 91 Times in 63 Posts
Thanked 3,654 Times in 1,470 Posts
Snoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Quote:
View Post
A judge at the Schlichtungsbehörde can authorise the bank to pay the landlord. It happens all the time. That is why there is a locked in deposit.
Actually not true. Decisions by the Schlichtungsbehörde are not binding. The aggrieved party can decide not to accept the decision and the "plaintiff" would have to go to court to get a binding decision. Of course that costs money, however the fact that the Schlichtungsbehörde had already made a recommendation in his favour would be a big plus.

And as Mrs. D pointed out, there is no judge at the Schlichtungsbehörde.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Snoopy for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 11.04.2012, 21:28
phdoofus's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: City by the Bay
Posts: 2,367
Groaned at 97 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 3,205 Times in 1,227 Posts
phdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Quote:
I know this is not what you'd like to hear - but by refusing to address the situation whilst in CH and getting a signed agreement- you've left wide opened for trouble. Hope it will all work out for the best.
I know, but we were kind of side-swiped by them and there really was no choice but to leave at that point. Personally, base on stories here, I had expected to not get my deposit back (better to be pleasantly surprised than disappointed). Mostly I'm fighting them because 99% of what they said was bullhockey and ridiculous. If they're going to get my money, they're going to work for it. I was going to pay for the painting before I left but after that inspection I said you can shove it. There was no way they were going to get that AND my deposit.

I've told them that if they want to be reasonable, we can talk. They haven't gotten back to me on that yet. Big surprise. Still, I'm surprised that there was no requirement that they give us their report before we left. That seems rather sketchy and illegal as they could add anything they wanted at that point. At what point can I start asking for my deposit back? ;-)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank phdoofus for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 11.04.2012, 21:31
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Not easy - do you have a really trusted friend back in Lugano you could appoint as your proxy to deal with the matter. It must be horrible to ahve to leave before being able to sort things out. All the very best.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11.04.2012, 21:50
magyir's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wallisellen
Posts: 1,594
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 465 Times in 328 Posts
magyir has an excellent reputationmagyir has an excellent reputationmagyir has an excellent reputationmagyir has an excellent reputation
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Since your return to the USA, have you sent a registered letter, with signature receipt requested to the management company asking for the assessment so you can respond?

You have an obligation to deliver the apartment in a good condition. There is now no witness to the state of the apartment when you left in Switzerland on your side right? (Did you take photos of the offending items?). Per issue you can be assessed 1% of a year's rent.

Regarding ridiculous/bullhockey, this you need to get a copy of all issues, and challenge each issue in writing. You might win some lose some as above.

You are responsible for having enough time, or having an agent, to conclude the process. Otherwise they can conduct reasonable repairs and cleaning costs to get the property in a lettable condition. The owner/agent didn't book your flights.

It's unlikely but you need to avoid the possibility of being assessed to compensate them for lost rent due to the delays (this will take a hearing).

You need to get in touch in writing to demonstrate you haven't simply abandoned the property unreasonably without sufficient regards to your obligations under Swiss law. Did you have insurance? They will usually refund approximately half.

I'm unclear on something from your post, did they REFUSE to give you a copy of the report, or did you REFUSE to sign? They might have interpreted that as not wanting the report. In any case what matters is the work I'm sure they're commissioning to resolve the issues noted, including any "hidden" ones within a reasonable length of time after your departure.

It's not unusual to wait the full year for the report and costs, and the request for you to agree to give up your deposit.

Last edited by magyir; 11.04.2012 at 22:00. Reason: additional background
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11.04.2012, 22:09
phdoofus's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: City by the Bay
Posts: 2,367
Groaned at 97 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 3,205 Times in 1,227 Posts
phdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Quote:
View Post
Since your return to the USA, have you sent a registered letter, with signature receipt requested to the management company asking for the assessment so you can respond?
No, but I can do that.

Quote:
View Post
You have an obligation to deliver the apartment in a good condition.
Having been a renter, a homeowner, and the guy who cleans up after other renters (my dad had rental properties), I'm pretty sure I understand that concept. You really had to be there to see this guy at work. There's leaving a place in good condition and then there's expecting you to clean things that would require you to hang from the top of the outside of the building several floors up.

Quote:
View Post
There is now no witness to the state of the apartment when you left in Switzerland on your side right?
I had a colleague from work both us when we rented the apartment and when we left. In fact, the latter spent more time arguing with them than we did (mostly because we aren't fluent but also because he thought the guy was being an unreasonable loon).

Quote:
View Post
Regarding ridiculous/bullhockey, this you need to get a copy of all issues, and challenge each issue in writing. You might win some lose some as above.
We've already sent several messages to them saying we want to take care of the things we are responsible for but that we are in no way going to be responsible for things that were promised to be fixed and later blamed on us. My colleague from work was present when they made these promises.

Quote:
View Post
You are responsible for having enough time, or having an agent, to conclude the process. Otherwise they can conduct reasonable repairs and cleaning costs to get the property in a lettable condition. The owner/agent didn't book your flights.
Fair enough, but when you spend a week cleaning a place you don't really feel like there's going to be any major issues.

Quote:
View Post
You need to get in touch in writing to demonstrate you haven't simply abandoned the property unreasonably without sufficient regards to your obligations under Swiss law.
Already done that. Will do it again.

Quote:
View Post
I'm unclear on something from your post, did they REFUSE to give you a copy of the report, or did you REFUSE to sign?
I simply refused to sign and they left to go do something else.

Quote:
View Post
It's not unusual to wait the full year for the report and costs, and the request for you to agree to give up your deposit.
Given the apparent lack of protections for tenants in CH, I fully expected to lose it anyway. Right now, I'm just trying to get them to act honorably and reasonably. I've not seen any indication that they are interested in doing so.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank phdoofus for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 11.04.2012, 22:44
magyir's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wallisellen
Posts: 1,594
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 465 Times in 328 Posts
magyir has an excellent reputationmagyir has an excellent reputationmagyir has an excellent reputationmagyir has an excellent reputation
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Thanks for the responses. It certainly clarifies your OP.

Did you have legal insurance when in CH or is it part of your home insurance?

Sometimes a simple letter from "m'learned friends" oils the squealing wheel and brings the process to a "more reasonable" footing

Regarding your "lack of protection of tenants" this is a matter of degree. Sure it isn't what it is in Germany, but I could tell you the story I'm going through on my place in London if you like, and the "lack of protection for landlords".

The trick here is to know how to play the "Obligations game", and the limits to your obligations, and how to challenge the discretionary elements, or have an agent It's exactly due to this nature, that one pays for so many services here, as you need a specialist for so many things. It keeps the economy going.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 23.04.2012, 18:14
phdoofus's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: City by the Bay
Posts: 2,367
Groaned at 97 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 3,205 Times in 1,227 Posts
phdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Well, strangely enough, we've managed to beat the management company back to something that we can live with and that we would have agreed to if their inspector had been less of a...what's that word my nephews used to use?....oh, yeah....stupidhead. They still did try to come back with charging us $2500 for painting with is way more than the quote from the guy they told us to get a quote from originally (they said this is our contracted painter). So, sending them the original quote (a PDF file on his letterhead that their painter emailed to me) they only replied with "Oh, okay then." I guess I couldn't expect them to admit to trying to play Fornicate the Frontalieri.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank phdoofus for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 05.04.2015, 23:49
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: zurich
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
robert_ay has no particular reputation at present
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

What's the worst case? losing all the deposit? can it be more?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06.04.2015, 00:24
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Formerly in Neuchatel
Posts: 2,903
Groaned at 222 Times in 151 Posts
Thanked 5,332 Times in 2,028 Posts
porsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Quote:
View Post
What's the worst case? losing all the deposit? can it be more?
Of course it can.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank porsch1909 for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 06.04.2015, 12:02
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: zurich
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
robert_ay has no particular reputation at present
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

but he is in US
Quote:
View Post
Of course it can.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06.04.2015, 12:08
Belgianmum's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Neuchâtel
Posts: 11,479
Groaned at 180 Times in 162 Posts
Thanked 17,861 Times in 7,560 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the requirements for the landlord after handover?

Quote:
View Post
but he is in US
And he sorted out the issue in 2012.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Belgianmum for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
After submitting nachmieter applications to the landlord bedevil Housing in general 7 09.11.2011 23:05
Security Deposit After Handover as I'm leaving the country fredmota Housing in general 2 19.05.2011 13:06
Sublet Landlord backed out after we registered at the Kreisbüro cabarnes Housing in general 5 04.03.2011 07:27
Bus driver jobs - what are the requirements ? shkabio Employment 9 15.08.2010 20:58
what are the requirements of name changing in switzerland donavir Family matters/health 2 23.12.2008 01:02


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0