Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 16.11.2012, 10:37
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 979
Groaned at 128 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 795 Times in 423 Posts
EPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputation
Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

I did not find anything on the subject, so here is my question (maby someone has experience in this):

We bought an apartment which we took over in October. Obviously we pay the Related costs (Nebenkosten) only for 1/3rd of the Year.

However, we were asked to pay into the Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve for the entire year. I find this unfair as these funds are actually a sort of amortization of the building to avoid depreciation. I believe we should not be reliable to the depreciation for the part of the year before we bought the apartment.

Side note: This year (2102) is the first year the Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve has been established (as the 2-year warranty on the building expires end of this year). However, all other owners actually lived in their apartments for the entire 2012 year.

Thanks for the answers,
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 16.11.2012, 10:51
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: la cote
Posts: 3,528
Groaned at 21 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 3,165 Times in 1,666 Posts
runningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

First look at your contract. We went/are going through something similar having done a transaction at mid year. We got along really well with the seller so most is being done per gentlemans agreement, and no really large sums are involved.

However, for certain things, we have found what counts is the owner of record on a certain date, for a lot of things this is 31 December. Thus, if you purchase very late in the year, say November, you would get the bill and be expected to pay by law. Thus, for us, many of these things were dealt upfront in the contract, ie. compensation or partial year fees deducted or changed hands as a result of the text in the contract. A few minor things like the garbage tax we worked out informally.

Hope this helps.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank runningdeer for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 16.11.2012, 11:01
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 979
Groaned at 128 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 795 Times in 423 Posts
EPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputation
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

Quote:
View Post
First look at your contract.
As it is not mandatory by law, there is nothing about this in our contracts, except that the STWEG can decide to set up an Erneuerungsfond.

The bill says "Erneuerungsfond for 2012". We don't want to start on the wrong foot with our neighbours but also don't want to be taken on a ride.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 16.11.2012, 11:27
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,602
Groaned at 281 Times in 187 Posts
Thanked 18,454 Times in 7,738 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

everybody pays into the fund for maintenance. so either you will pay, or the person you bought it from must agree to pay. it doesn't make sense that you pay less.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:07
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 979
Groaned at 128 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 795 Times in 423 Posts
EPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputation
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

Quote:
View Post
everybody pays into the fund for maintenance. so either you will pay, or the person you bought it from must agree to pay. it doesn't make sense that you pay less.
The more I think about it, the more I believe the seller should pay for the part of the year he still "owned" the place as he sold an apartment for the same price as the new apartments, however by the time this one was sold it already had some depreciation (which the Fund is supposed to compensate for). So in order to keep the same value for the apartments sold later, the seller should pay.

HOWEVER: We agreed to the seller's terms (he could say that we did not ask about the funds is our problem).

Thinking about it: If I would buy an apartment in a building, the other apartment would stay empty for 10 years, then someone moves in and the same day he moves in let's say a new pump needs to be bought. It would not be fair to me to pay the entire sum out of my own pocket (fund paid alone) and the new tenant nothing but benefit from the new pump even though he knew (must have known) that the apartment was not new and accepted the price as it was.

Ok, I just answered my question, but anyway
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:11
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: la cote
Posts: 3,528
Groaned at 21 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 3,165 Times in 1,666 Posts
runningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

Quote:
View Post
As it is not mandatory by law, there is nothing about this in our contracts, except that the STWEG can decide to set up an Erneuerungsfond.
Indeed, many things are not required by law, but many put things in the contract to protect themselves/their interests. For many known fees/costs this is indeed thought out in advance in put in the contract by one or the other parties. For the unknown, most people protect themselves with a general clause, relating to the divying up of all fees and related costs on a pro-rata basis for the year. If you do not have something in the contract to proctect you, I guess you are stuck unless you can discuss and have goodwill agreement with the seller. Always worth a try I guess.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:12
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ticino
Posts: 3,002
Groaned at 93 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 3,902 Times in 1,559 Posts
Snoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

Quote:
View Post
The more I think about it, the more I believe the seller should pay for the part of the year he still "owned" the place as he sold an apartment for the same price as the new apartments, however by the time this one was sold it already had some depreciation (which the Fund is supposed to compensate for). So in order to keep the same value for the apartments sold later, the seller should pay.

HOWEVER: We agreed to the seller's terms (he could say that we did not ask about the funds is our problem).

Thinking about it: If I would buy an apartment in a building, the other apartment would stay empty for 10 years, then someone moves in and the same day he moves in let's say a new pump needs to be bought. It would not be fair to me to pay the entire sum out of my own pocket (fund paid alone) and the new tenant nothing but benefit from the new pump even though he knew (must have known) that the apartment was not new and accepted the price as it was.

Ok, I just answered my question, but anyway
Tenants don't pay, only owners do. And it would be irrelevant whether the apartment was empty or not. You own, you pay. So your example is not really a good one.

You could be right about the previous owner owing something, but you should check whether there was anything in your purchase contract which said anything about it.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:24
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,602
Groaned at 281 Times in 187 Posts
Thanked 18,454 Times in 7,738 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

anyway, i believe suspect it makes sense that the buyer pays into the funds. normally, if there is a fund in surplus, this is stated in the purchase particulars and you pay to take over this surplus.

Last edited by Phil_MCR; 16.11.2012 at 13:02.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:44
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Freiburg (D) Engelberg (CH)
Posts: 46
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 18 Times in 14 Posts
neilD has no particular reputation at present
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

I though that the Erneuerungsfonds were for large maintenace items i.e. re-paint the outside of the flats, new roof. Any smaller items (such as a pump etc) are just split at the end of the fiscal year. Our fonds haven't been touched in 6 years and just keep growing.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:54
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Freiburg (D) Engelberg (CH)
Posts: 46
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 18 Times in 14 Posts
neilD has no particular reputation at present
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

Quote:
View Post
I though that the Erneuerungsfonds were for large maintenace items i.e. re-paint the outside of the flats, new roof. Any smaller items (such as a pump etc) are just split at the end of the fiscal year. Our fonds haven't been touched in 6 years and just keep growing.
Sorry forgot to say building was new and we started pying into the fonds after around 1 year.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 16.11.2012, 13:14
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 979
Groaned at 128 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 795 Times in 423 Posts
EPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputation
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

Quote:
View Post
Tenants don't pay, only owners do. And it would be irrelevant whether the apartment was empty or not. You own, you pay. So your example is not really a good one.
Empty in my example meant "unsold"
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 16.11.2012, 13:15
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 979
Groaned at 128 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 795 Times in 423 Posts
EPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputation
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

Quote:
View Post
I though that the Erneuerungsfonds were for large maintenace items i.e. re-paint the outside of the flats, new roof. Any smaller items (such as a pump etc) are just split at the end of the fiscal year. Our fonds haven't been touched in 6 years and just keep growing.
Well if the pump is a geothermal heat pump, then I belive this qualifies as "large".
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 16.11.2012, 13:21
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 979
Groaned at 128 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 795 Times in 423 Posts
EPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputation
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

Quote:
View Post
anyway, i believe suspect it makes sense that the buyer pays into the funds. normally, if there is a fund in surplus, this is stated in the purchase particulars and you pay to take over this surplus.
I just checked the contract: it states there is no fund. It gets complicated as this was true when signing the contract but not when the change of ownership happened (about 3Months lapsed inbetween).
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 16.11.2012, 13:29
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Freiburg (D) Engelberg (CH)
Posts: 46
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 18 Times in 14 Posts
neilD has no particular reputation at present
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

Quote:
View Post
Empty in my example meant "unsold"
When its unsold its still owned by the company that built it. In our case (6 years later) they are still paying because they still own garage space in the underground car park and were also paying until all the flats were sold. Which in one particular case took 4 years (Very Very large flat)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 16.11.2012, 13:32
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,378
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

Future repairs are a potential liability at some distant point. I don't think you will get the seller to contribute.......

I assume you made inquiries before buying a property that was so much cheaper than renting........
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 16.11.2012, 17:09
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greater Zürich Area
Posts: 979
Groaned at 128 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 795 Times in 423 Posts
EPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputationEPMike has an excellent reputation
Re: Erneuerungsfonds - Renewal Reserve

Quote:
View Post
I assume you made inquiries before buying a property that was so much cheaper than renting........
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
renewal; reserve




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
construction next to La Reserve ? ( GE ) grynch Other/general 4 06.06.2011 12:09
Property sale: 'We reserve the right..." meloncollie Housing in general 4 28.02.2011 22:47
Permit B Renewal sam9 Permits/visas/government 9 01.10.2009 10:52


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0