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Old 20.02.2013, 17:20
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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N
There's a law about that:
Art. 267

Something like that.
Just want to mention that the Swiss Code of Obligations is available in English. Just change the /f/rs/ (French) or /d/sr/ (German) part of the URL into /e/rs/
Example Art. 267
French http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/rs/220/a276.html
German http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/220/a276.html
Italian http://www.admin.ch/ch/i/rs/220/a276.html
English http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/220/a276.html

But keep in mind:
English is not an official language of the Swiss Confederation. This translation is provided for information purposes only and has no legal force.
It is possible that the translation provided is not up to date.
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  #22  
Old 20.02.2013, 17:21
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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Thanks a lot for the information. I am just worried about this postfinance bill she sent me for the total cost. What would happen if I don't pay her petty bill?
Probably troubles-

That is why you should listen to Qwark:
join your local Mieterverband/ASLOCA and ask them for expert guidance and support.

It's not expensive. Go and join already!
.

But you will do that with some information in hands, for example that the law (art267.a) says you are relieved of any liability...
Because you have returned the property and she failed to notify you of any defects.
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  #23  
Old 20.02.2013, 17:23
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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Thanks a lot for the information. I am just worried about this postfinance bill she sent me for the total cost. What would happen if I don't pay her petty bill?
Look in one of these forum thread(/t)s.
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Old 20.02.2013, 17:26
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

But she did notify me of the defects, hence the bill and email. The thing is she sent me it over 2 weeks after I moved out.
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Probably troubles-

That is why you should listen to Qwark:
join your local Mieterverband/ASLOCA and ask them for expert guidance and support.

It's not expensive. Go and join already!
.

But you will do that with some information in hands, for example that the law (art267.a) says you are relieved of any liability...
Because you have returned the property and she failed to notify you of any defects.
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  #25  
Old 20.02.2013, 17:29
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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But she did notify me of the defects, hence the bill and email. The thing is she sent me it over 2 weeks after I moved out.



Art. 267 a

II. Checking the status of the thing and notice to the tenant

1 When returning, the lessor must check the condition of it and immediately notify the tenant of the defects which it meets.

2 If the landlord fails to do so, the tenant is relieved of any liability, unless either of defects that could not be found using the usual checks.

3 If the landlord later discovered defects of this kind, he must immediately notify the tenant.



The state of the pan could have been checked immediately.
The cleanliness could have been checked immediately.
The hair dryer could have been checked immediately. (For example in a list of items that were present, and doing a check list).


So read carefully the law, but anyway... follow the guy's advice!!!
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Old 20.02.2013, 17:31
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

how much is the bill? Is it worth the hassle or is it a principle of the matter type thing? Sometimes education in life comes not only in the classroom, and tuition doesn't always go to the Universities (I like to tell myself that when I do something silly, that it is furthering my education!)
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Old 20.02.2013, 17:33
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

The bill is a little over 200 francs, of which most is unjustified and what little is, she can pay using the extra 100 fr I paid each month.
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how much is the bill? Is it worth the hassle or is it a principle of the matter type thing? Sometimes education in life comes not only in the classroom, and tuition doesn't always go to the Universities (I like to tell myself that when I do something silly, that it is furthering my education!)
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Old 20.02.2013, 18:58
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

The extra CHF100 is most likely to be for the use of her furnishings, electricity, the landline rent (CHF25ish), not to mention the extra liability and contents insurance premium which one should pay when sub-letting. I very much doubt she will have seen much change from the extra CHF100. I guess that if she has taken the bill to the authorities she has checked her facts and is pretty sure she has a case. As to the cleaning, you only have a leg to stand if your cleaning was done by a firm which gave you a cleanliness certificate. In which case you could try and get redress from them.

If you want to contest the bill you should pay the CHF200 into a locked account and go to the Schlichtungsbehörde to argue your case personally. The one thing you really must avoid at all costs is not pay, as then your landlady will go to the Betreibungsamt and get a Betreibung to recover the debt. You don't want to be on their register as you will have difficulty renting another place, because most landlords ask for a certificate from the Betreibungsamt to prove you are debt free. Just save yourself the hassle and pay up and put it down to experience.
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Old 20.02.2013, 19:51
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

To be honest in your shoes I think I would just pay the 200chfs and forget about it.
The hassles involved in contesting it are not worth it for that amount. As the others have said the extra rent is probably to cover furniture and other stuff which seems normal to me unless person you sublet from also rented it furnished.
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  #30  
Old 20.02.2013, 19:58
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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Not true! You forget "fair use". Minor scratches are quite likely acceptable-
There's a law about that:
Art. 267


P. Restitution de la chose
I. En général
1 A la fin du bail, le locataire doit restituer la chose dans l’état qui résulte d’un usage conforme au contrat.

At the end of the lease, the one renting must give back the things in the state that is resulting from an usage compliant with the contract.

Something like that.

The problem here is they have [probably] not signed any "etat des lieux" so it might be conflicting.
Of course the OP can use the stuff but can't ruin the stuff. If s/he scratched the tefon pans (which is what I'm assuming this whole hub-ub is about), then they are ruined and can no longer be used. That is not the same thing as "normal wear and tear".

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The bill is a little over 200 francs, of which most is unjustified and what little is, she can pay using the extra 100 fr I paid each month.
I think we've said a few times already that the 100CHF extra covers use of her stuff and as Nixi says it probably also covers the "charges".

If you scratched her teflon pans you've basically ruined them and she can't use them anymore and you should replace them.

The cleaning, well, she's probably being picky. BUt who knows. Since she didn't give you a chance to clean what was not cleaned you could tell her you're not paying the whole thing but only part of it.

Ultimately you should try to come to an agreement with her. Tell her you feel you owe X and see what she says. Maybe you can find an agreement in the middle.
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Old 20.02.2013, 20:03
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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The bill is a little over 200 francs, of which most is unjustified and what little is, she can pay using the extra 100 fr I paid each month.
200CHF is that all you have done extremely well this is nothing!
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  #32  
Old 20.02.2013, 20:09
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

200 CHF is not worth the hassle, IMO - I guess if you are a student or unemployed I guess it could seem like a lot, but trying to fight it will probably cost you just as much, not to mention the trouble. Did you ever just talk to her about all this?
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  #33  
Old 20.02.2013, 20:13
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

I was once charged more than 300/month for "furnishings & utilities"...creepy as it was ..it is a letter's market
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  #34  
Old 20.02.2013, 20:19
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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200 CHF is not worth the hassle, IMO - I guess if you are a student or unemployed I guess it could seem like a lot, but trying to fight it will probably cost you just as much, not to mention the trouble. Did you ever just talk to her about all this?
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To be honest in your shoes I think I would just pay the 200chfs and forget about it.
The hassles involved in contesting it are not worth it for that amount. As the others have said the extra rent is probably to cover furniture and other stuff which seems normal to me unless person you sublet from also rented it furnished.
And this is exactly the reason why this type of things keep on happening, even worse, if you don't just pay the bill you'll probably get told off by many members for damaging the reputation of foreigners in CH.
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Old 20.02.2013, 20:34
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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And this is exactly the reason why this type of things keep on happening, even worse, if you don't just pay the bill you'll probably get told off by many members for damaging the reputation of foreigners in CH.
This is why I asked if she even talked to the woman about the issues. I would love to hear your solution to the matter...
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  #36  
Old 21.02.2013, 10:53
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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Of course the OP can use the stuff but can't ruin the stuff. If s/he scratched the tefon pans (which is what I'm assuming this whole hub-ub is about), then they are ruined and can no longer be used. That is not the same thing as "normal wear and tear".



I think we've said a few times already that the 100CHF extra covers use of her stuff and as Nixi says it probably also covers the "charges".

If you scratched her teflon pans you've basically ruined them and she can't use them anymore and you should replace them.

The cleaning, well, she's probably being picky. BUt who knows. Since she didn't give you a chance to clean what was not cleaned you could tell her you're not paying the whole thing but only part of it.

Ultimately you should try to come to an agreement with her. Tell her you feel you owe X and see what she says. Maybe you can find an agreement in the middle.
I quite dislike this type of answers because it's not based on facts, on legal grounds.

So here I am again: There's a massive BUT in your explanation:

She should have noticed during the handover. She failed to do so, the OP is legally relieved of any irresponsibility.


Now think the situation again, it has been announced 2 weeks after: what if someone else has done the damages? It can happen- The OP denies the "hair drier", the OP denies having damaged much the pan, etc...
What if the person done that herself, or a friends/Visitor has done the damages afterward?

Anyway, no point in discussing "what ifs", the OP has rights also. And it seems it's done.
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Old 21.02.2013, 10:55
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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And this is exactly the reason why this type of things keep on happening, even worse, if you don't just pay the bill you'll probably get told off by many members for damaging the reputation of foreigners in CH.
Thanks a lot for that!

If no one complains and just pay for any "fantasy", then the person is likely to do it again-

And if one fails to pay and put conflict, it's likely to damage reputation of "foreigners" (even when the one not respecting the law is the "alleged victim".

So OP, do something!
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Old 21.02.2013, 11:04
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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1)200 CHF is not worth the hassle, IMO -
2)I guess if you are a student or unemployed I guess it could seem like a lot,
3)but trying to fight it will probably cost you just as much,
4)not to mention the trouble.
5)Did you ever just talk to her about all this?
1) Indeed it's your opinion- In mine it's worth- and in the OP's it seems worthy because he is obviously unhappy of this attempt to collect money from him
2) Indeed
3)Not true: he can join the "association" as Quark suggested- Joining fee is much less, and lasts a yer
4) Troubles? the OP has an opportunity to learn the rights, not get crooked, sort a conflicting situation, and stands for his rights. Also he can learn for the future the importance of a proper "written handover". It's very valuable and worth the "trouble"! Just for the handover bits, it might save him thousands of CHF in future tenancy.
5)Yes maybe discussion is an idea. However he should come to the discussion with enough "background info" to know his and her rights. In the matter she doesn't seems to have been very talkative with him, as she just "sent a bill". So she seems to have selected her grounds already- Maybe a mediation from this association would help.
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Old 21.02.2013, 12:46
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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I quite dislike this type of answers because it's not based on facts, on legal grounds.

So here I am again: There's a massive BUT in your explanation:

She should have noticed during the handover. She failed to do so, the OP is legally relieved of any irresponsibility.

Now think the situation again, it has been announced 2 weeks after: what if someone else has done the damages? It can happen- The OP denies the "hair drier", the OP denies having damaged much the pan, etc...
What if the person done that herself, or a friends/Visitor has done the damages afterward?

Anyway, no point in discussing "what ifs", the OP has rights also. And it seems it's done.
And I don't like your "let's try to get get him off on a technicality" approach.
What if he DID ruined her pans? What if he just thinks a couple of scratches on a teflon pan are "no big deal" when in fact they render the pans useless? Then he should pay for them. It's the right thing to do.

I also said he should discuss the other stuff with her and come to an agreement. IE, "Sorry I ruined your pans. Don't know what happened to your hair dryer. I've never seen it. I'll pay half the cleaning. So let's say I pay CHF125 instead of over CHF200 that you originally wanted"

So we'll just have to agree to disagree and see wait to see what the OP does.
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Old 21.02.2013, 12:49
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Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

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And I don't like your "let's try to get get him off on a technicality" approach.
What if he DID ruined her pans? What if he just thinks a couple of scratches on a teflon pan are "no big deal" when in fact they render the pans useless? Then he should pay for them. It's the right thing to do.

I also said he should discuss the other stuff with her and come to an agreement. IE, "Sorry I ruined your pans. Don't know what happened to your hair dryer. I've never seen it. I'll pay half the cleaning. So let's say I pay CHF125 instead of over CHF200 that you originally wanted"

So we'll just have to agree to disagree and see wait to see what the OP does.
If Teflon pans were so precious, arguably shouldn't have left them to be used.

Why are they rendered useless when scratched? http://www2.dupont.com/Teflon/en_US/...are_myths.html
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