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Old 07.04.2013, 14:37
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Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in CH?

So my wife wants to get rid of our 20+ year old kitchen. Having got a price estimate in CH, it would be ~50K CHF. The *same* kitchen in France is only 25K CHF. Each and every appliance costs all at least 100% more :-(

The problem is that apparently, french appliances work all under 220V, in particular the oven and the stove. These connections are 400V in Vaud (where we live). The swiss kitchen guy is scaremongering us with this argument, in order to not buy appliances outside CH!

Given that the appliance brand is a German one (Siemens), would there be a possibility to connect the 220V oven and the 220V stove to the existing 400V connection with some work(?) ?

Or do I need to order the same appliance in Germany, would that help?

I have read of many people buying their kitchens in Germany and installing them in CH. What about buying in France (still German appliances but french power standards), anybody knows how to solve this?

(Not that I would NOT want to do the cabling myself, rather get an electrician to do it, but I want to know if it is possible at all and if it represents a major work!)

I think the same problem applies to washing machines, which have sometimes 400V connections rather than 220V ... has anyone imported these to CH when moving in from other european countries?

I've been told that 400V in reality is a 3-phase combination of 220V current but I hardly know what a Volt is :-( ...

Thanks for *any* help!
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Old 07.04.2013, 14:43
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

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I've been told that 400V in reality is a 3-phase combination of 220V current but I hardly know what a Volt is :-( ...

Thanks for *any* help!
It's possible that the cooker can be connected to both 220 v & 380 v in any case. German appliances will work & usually be 3 phase.

The only issue is how many amps per phase is available, it should be possible to put the Hob on 1 phase & the oven on another.

If you can give some links to the appliances, then it will be easier to say what issues you may have. As French houses often only have 16a available in total it may not be an issue.
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Old 07.04.2013, 14:48
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

About "I've been told that 400V in reality is a 3-phase combination of 220V current but I hardly know what a Volt is :-( ..."

The 400V outlet should have a socket that looks like the one in the picture. As you can see you can use a normal Swiss 3 pin 220v plug in this socket in the top 3 holes.

If you just have a cable coming out of the wall you will need an electrician to install the socket; should cost not more than 150CHF.

Last edited by marton; 08.12.2017 at 18:38.
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Old 07.04.2013, 15:08
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

I would buy the kitchen in France, including the montage! But ask the French supplier to supply a 3 phase oven.

Or you can order one in Germany and even collect it yourselves, http://www.gelbeseiten.de/elektro-ha...raete/loerrach you should easily be able to reclaim the 19% tax, you need to get the documents stamped on the border.

The problem is that 3 phases are used in Switzerland and Germany to even out the current loading in the supply cables. This means your house wiring to the oven is probably only 10 Amp for each of the 3 phase connections, but your oven and cooker would use a total of maybe 16 Amps. It really is better to buy a 3 phase cooker and oven.

Your fuse box for the cooker probably has 3 x 10 amp contact, and putting 16 amps on this will not work. Your electrician would need to pull out the 3 phase cable and put in a thicker one phase cable, and a 16 amp fuse.

Your next problem would be getting spare parts. Most companies would only stock 3 phase heating elements in Switzerland, you might have to order a single phase heating element.

I did once convert a double oven English cooker to 3 phase working: it is possible but I had to rewire the internal cooker. I first connected all the wires for the first oven to phase 1, the second oven & grill to phase 2, and the 4 hotplates / hob to phase 3. It worked well, but it took a while to sort out all the wiring!
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Old 07.04.2013, 21:37
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

Dear All,

many thanks for all your responses!

@marton: Unfortunately there is no outlet it seems - the cable comes out straight from the wall. The installation dates from ~20 years back.

@fatmanfilms: The list of appliances is below. To the french models, I have added what I found as similar models in CH and DE. The price difference with CH is just shocking.

Unfortunately, I really don't understand much - it seems the induction stove is supposed to work on 220V in Switzerland as well, but delivering 7200W which would mean 33A by dividing 7200/220? (apologies if I get it all wrong!)

The DE product either specifies no voltage (stove) or 220-240V (oven). Would it still be usable on 400V?


Induction stove:
1. France: Table Cuisson induction (F) EH651BX17E. Prix 829EUR. Puissance raccordement 7200W (donc 7200/220=33A en une phase!?!) (http://www.siemens-home.fr/nos-produ...?source=browse)
2. Suisse: Table cuisson induction (CH) EH645QE11E. Prix 1940 CHF. Puissance 7200W (220-240V!) (http://www.siemens-home.com/ch/fr/pr...?source=browse)
3. Induktions-Kochfeld (DE) EI645EB11. Prix 650 EUR. 7000W. Voltage? (http://www.siemens-home.de/produktsu...?source=browse)

Oven:
Four HB75GB560F (France). 1120EUR. Puissance raccordement 3650W (donc 3650/220=16.6A) (http://www.siemens-home.fr/nos-produ...B75GB560F.html)
Four HB75GB550C (Suisse). 3390CHF. Puissance raccordement 3650W (16A, 400V) (http://www.siemens-home.com/ch/fr/pr...?source=browse)
Four HB76GB560 (Allemagne). 864E-1099E. 3650 W, 220-240V, "Schuko-/Gardy m. Erdung" (http://www.siemens-home.de/produktsu...?source=browse)


Many thanks again!
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Old 07.04.2013, 22:03
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

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Dear All,

many thanks for all your responses!

@marton: Unfortunately there is no outlet it seems - the cable comes out straight from the wall. The installation dates from ~20 years back.

@fatmanfilms: The list of appliances is below. To the french models, I have added what I found as similar models in CH and DE. The price difference with CH is just shocking.

Unfortunately, I really don't understand much - it seems the induction stove is supposed to work on 220V in Switzerland as well, but delivering 7200W which would mean 33A by dividing 7200/220? (apologies if I get it all wrong!)

The DE product either specifies no voltage (stove) or 220-240V (oven). Would it still be usable on 400V?


Induction stove:
1. France: Table Cuisson induction (F) EH651BX17E. Prix 829EUR. Puissance raccordement 7200W (donc 7200/220=33A en une phase!?!) (http://www.siemens-home.fr/nos-produ...?source=browse)
2. Suisse: Table cuisson induction (CH) EH645QE11E. Prix 1940 CHF. Puissance 7200W (220-240V!) (http://www.siemens-home.com/ch/fr/pr...?source=browse)
3. Induktions-Kochfeld (DE) EI645EB11. Prix 650 EUR. 7000W. Voltage? (http://www.siemens-home.de/produktsu...?source=browse)

Oven:
Four HB75GB560F (France). 1120EUR. Puissance raccordement 3650W (donc 3650/220=16.6A) (http://www.siemens-home.fr/nos-produ...B75GB560F.html)
Four HB75GB550C (Suisse). 3390CHF. Puissance raccordement 3650W (16A, 400V) (http://www.siemens-home.com/ch/fr/pr...?source=browse)
Four HB76GB560 (Allemagne). 864E-1099E. 3650 W, 220-240V, "Schuko-/Gardy m. Erdung" (http://www.siemens-home.de/produktsu...?source=browse)


Many thanks again!
I would ask an electrician how much it will cost to put 2 or 3 x 32amp circuits in your kitchen. I am amazed by how much power these A efficiency appliances need. In France I have an entire flat running off 16 amp, OK you can't put everything on at once or the trip blows!

I think 32 amp circuits will do fine, the next size up is probably 63 amp & that will get expensive!.
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Old 07.04.2013, 22:07
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

We had a three phase (400V) electrical outlet. It was a simple matter to convert this to three 220V single phases. Get a quote from an electrician - it may just require some simple rewiring.
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Old 07.04.2013, 22:12
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

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We had a three phase (400V) electrical outlet. It was a simple matter to convert this to three 220V single phases. Get a quote from an electrician - it may just require some simple rewiring.
It's already 3 x 220 V, you get 380 V across any 2 phases. I never know why the outlets say 400 V when it's 380 V, perhaps voltage was 230v previously in CH & this would give about 400 V across any 2 phases.
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Old 07.04.2013, 22:23
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

Technically it's 220/380V, 230/400V and 240/415V - I'm sure you're aware of that anyway I'd guess any 400V appliance will run on 380V - just as a 230V will run on 220V.
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Old 07.04.2013, 23:38
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

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It's already 3 x 220 V, you get 380 V across any 2 phases. I never know why the outlets say 400 V when it's 380 V, perhaps voltage was 230v previously in CH & this would give about 400 V across any 2 phases.
Actually it is the other way around. It was 220V/380V and it is now 230V/400V as every where else in Europe. See IEC 60038 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity.

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Standardization

Following voltage harmonization, electricity supplies within the European Union are now nominally 230 V ± 10% at 50 Hz.[1] For a transition period (1995–2008), countries that had previously used 220 V changed to a narrower asymmetric tolerance range of 230 V +6% −10% and those (like the UK) that had previously used 240 V changed to 230 V +10% −6%.[2] No change in voltage is required by either system as both 220 V and 240 V fall within the lower 230 V tolerance bands (230 V ±10%). Some areas of the UK still have 250 volts for legacy reasons, but these also fall within the 10% tolerance band of 230 volts. In practice, this allows countries to continue to supply the same voltage (220 or 240 V), at least until existing supply transformers are replaced. Equipment (with the exception of filament bulbs) used in these countries is designed to accept any voltage within the specified range.

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We had a three phase (400V) electrical outlet. It was a simple matter to convert this to three 220V single phases. Get a quote from an electrician - it may just require some simple rewiring.
Wait what? You did pay for the "conversion" There is no rewiring needed, a 400V socket is both. 400V and 230V it is just a questin if you meassure from phase to phase or from phase to neutral.

Edit: I think I understand. You had a Single Typ 15 socket and now you have a Tripple Typ 13 socket.
Here is an overview of all Swiss sockets an plugs and which goes into which one.


PS: An high wattage hob/oven has to be permanentely installed w/o any plug.
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Old 08.04.2013, 00:19
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

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Actually it is the other way around. It was 220V/380V and it is now 230V/400V as every where else in Europe. See IEC 60038 and [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains
I am just telling you what I see with a multimeter, which is where 380v comes from, never seen 400v in Zurich or Geneva.
From the page you link it says +/- 10% so it's actually in spec.
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Old 08.04.2013, 02:07
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

In some (mostly older) installations, the neutral wire is simply missing. So if a new equipment part needs 230V, a rewiring may be required.

In the most cases, oven and cooking stoves are not connected by a socket - they are usually connected directly without any plugs.
(Smaller equipment like a steamer or dishwashers have plugs)

In the most cases, its not a problem to connect a equipment from germany or france. If you want to be sure, give the datasheets of the products to your electrician and let him do a quick check.

Gruss
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Old 08.04.2013, 08:49
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

The voltage in my house is 220V (last time I checked). The standard is 230 +/- 6% - that's ~216 to ~244.

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Wait what? You did pay for the "conversion" There is no rewiring needed, a 400V socket is both. 400V and 230V it is just a questin if you meassure from phase to phase or from phase to neutral.

Edit: I think I understand. You had a Single Typ 15 socket and now you have a Tripple Typ 13 socket.
No. I didn't pay for conversion. There was no socket. There was a 2-phase (yes, really) washing machine directly wired to the junction box. I personally directly wired my new washing machine (220V) and drier (220V) into the junction box. An electrician friend verified I'd done it properly. The third 220V now has a socket on the end for a 16A output for my chainsaw and angle grinder. Each 220V is protected by its own circuit breaker.
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Old 08.04.2013, 08:55
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

As you freely admit yourself, and i am exactly the same, it maybe worth paying a little more and having professional help.

If you buy your nice equipment in France, you import it, you find out you have a problem, you wiull have to re-export from CH, re-import to EU, get the retailer to take it back, re-imburse possibly or change equipment. All this time without a kitchen so you'll have to eat out more possible.....

What you end up saving may cost far more.....

Try comparing costs on www.toppreise.ch you maybe pleasently surprised. These guys do what you want to do, but for a living and they are CH based so easy to retrun/change usualy.
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Old 08.04.2013, 12:39
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Re: Connecting a German 220V kitchen appliance bought in France to a 400V outlet in C

I think you are worrying too much about something that a professional needs to look at anyway.

I just got a kitchen installed from Germany.

The German kitchen co. told us upfront that we need to get a local electrician in to help install the equipment. The process was more like this:

In the offer from the kitchen guys, they note down in the plan exactly where what socket needs to be, including the voltage, amp, whatever. This will happen anyway as when you plan your kitchen, you might want to move your fridge elsewhere for example, or add in a steamer, or some downlights within the cabinets, or simply put in extra sockets.

Then I called the electrician and showed him the plan. He proceeded to draw a few things on the wall, where he would put what, and came back a few days later with the quote. When all agreed, you just need to coordinate with the kitchen guys as the electrician would need to prepare the sockets before the kitchen arrives, and also he needs to be there to install the equipment when the kitchen arrives.

PS: I also got Siemens stuff. Siemens Schweiz will take care of the service and guarantee, as long as you order the models which are also available in Switzerland. No problem.
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