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Old 19.02.2008, 10:00
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Etat de lieu - Your Rights

Etat de lieu - What are your rights?. I had a bad experience with my etat de lieu and need some advise. I did not agree 100% with the etat de lieu although some points were valid.

For example, when being asked, 'what was the chewing gum on the wall?' I pointed out that this was 'blue tac' as we all know is a temporary adhesive for pictures that can be easily removed from the wall. As I demonstrated this he pushed my hand out the way and said 'you will mark the wall leave it'.

He found a moth (bug), proceeded to bring it to me, ask what it was and declare the place was not clean enough. I told him I left a window open when cleaning to dry the floors.

Therefore I decided when signing the etat de lieu I would put an asterix and make a comment that 'I do not agree 100% to all of the etat de lieu' to which he snatched the pen from me when I began writing this and was not allowed to write or finish my comment.

In the end he said if I didnt sign the document a judge will come and inspect the place would be 2000sfr or professional cleaners 1000sfr or I can pay 100sfr now.... of course to my humiliation I went to get the 100sfr.

I left crying.

I know the best protection is ASLOCA and I recommend it to all, but unfortunately I feel I am too late. Although 100sfr is not alot I felt humiliated. Does anyone have the same story or any advice?????.

Thanks
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Old 19.02.2008, 10:25
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

My first post on the forum was a similar question

Firstly don't get upset its a common problem in Switzerland and no reflection of how clean or not the apartment was

100 Chf is definitely not worth getting upset over

I am still refusing to pay my ex landlords because they sent the invoice 5 months after I left and because the bitch who inspected the apartment was incredibly obnoxious and totally unreasonable.

As I live in France and they don't have a deposit its almost impossible for them to do much about it

Personally I would kick the closest available cat and forget it
Take care
ash
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Old 19.02.2008, 10:37
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

Hi,
Thanks for the support.
Yeah I do feel like dropping it .... it is only how degrading I felt.
The only thing being I did my deposit with swiss caution so not a problem.
The only problem is if they do decide to bill me for anything and it gets poursuited I guess I have to pay.
Best thing I suppose is hope the 100sfr was all there is to it.
It is incredible though.
Thanks again
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Old 19.02.2008, 11:03
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

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For example, when being asked, 'what was the chewing gum on the wall?' I pointed out that this was 'blue tac' as we all know is a temporary adhesive for pictures that can be easily removed from the wall. As I demonstrated this he pushed my hand out the way and said 'you will mark the wall leave it'.

Therefore I decided when signing the etat de lieu I would put an asterix and make a comment that 'I do not agree 100% to all of the etat de lieu' to which he snatched the pen from me when I began writing this and was not allowed to write or finish my comment.

In the end he said if I didnt sign the document a judge will come and inspect the place would be 2000sfr or professional cleaners 1000sfr or I can pay 100sfr now.... of course to my humiliation I went to get the 100sfr.

HUH? What judge??As if the guys from the Mietgericht (court) would do any such thing WITHOUT previous problems with you !This story beggars belief to what some ppl get up to, although I have to add ,you should have removed the blue tac BEFORE you wanted to hand the flat back.

What doesn't add up for me, how come a judge would cost 2000 bucks another cleaning a 1000 bucks but he only wanted 100 cash in hand? Something smells fishy to me.

As far as I know, you are perfectly entitled to do that you intended to do and mark the form that you are not in agreement,with certain points, you need to mark the points you are contesting on the form,if we have such problems with leaving tenants,we always give them a second chance to put the stuff right and then agree a few days later on the definite hand over,or i clearly state that I will do the cleaning for them and also tell them at what price per hour.

I would still try and get advice from asloca,it's never too late.
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Old 19.02.2008, 11:09
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

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<snip>

For example, when being asked, 'what was the chewing gum on the wall?' I pointed out that this was 'blue tac' as we all know is a temporary adhesive for pictures that can be easily removed from the wall.
I know that going through an état de lieu can be stressful, but I can't help but wonder why you didn't remove the blue tac yourself before the inspection? I think most (if not all) apartment agencies would consider a place with blue stuff stuck to the walls as not completely clean. The general rule is that when you do an etat de lieu, the place should be absolutely spotless, whereas you seem to have left it with a few things for the incoming tenants to deal with. This is a big no-no in Switzerland.

I know it's probably not what you want to hear, but I think that you might be on the hook for some cleaning bills.

Heather
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Old 19.02.2008, 11:11
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

Hi,
Thanks for that.
Unfortunately for me the bluetac was tiny.... I didnt even notice it till I was right up against the wall and there were tiny bits left.
I agreed to move it and show him but he pushed my hand out the way.
I guess 100sfr is not a great loss but I was so upset that you can be talked to like that!
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Old 19.02.2008, 11:15
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

To all,
I agree with your points.
I guess you have to swallow your pride at the end of the day.
The process is incredible although I understand the place has to be clean it is more the attitude you are confronted with.
Now it is best to enjoy my new place and hope they dont send any 'follow up' bills.
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Old 20.02.2008, 00:08
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

It seems very strange that they took Fr. 100 from you. I think this may have been an "étranger" (foreigner)fee in his eyes.
There are certainly good and bad ways to do this hand-over. Normally they withhold a month at the beginning of rental for such fees. I did not see the place, but if you have a document stating it's state when you moved in, you may be able to fight it out some.
On the other hand, some places are far more strict than others. Did they unscrew the water tap filters and charge you for the small pieces of sand that came out??? Yes true story.
You should not have paid Fr. 100 to him cash, without a receipt.
Get proof of the inspection and send a certified letter to the "rental company"

Last edited by PC_Advisor; 20.02.2008 at 09:25.
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Old 20.02.2008, 09:09
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

PCdesigns thanks for that.
Also I found it strange that I brought the original etat de lieu when I moved in and so did he!!!
Therefore no matter how clean he was already comparing against the original. Obviously marking everything down a notch.
I find it really bad and hope all I hear from them is the 100sfr and that is it.
If they start charging for more that is the only time I will go mad.
Otherwise will definitely move on.
How humiliating.
Would be interesting to have a tv documentry on something like this as I think sometimes they can push there limits further than they should!.
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Old 20.02.2008, 09:28
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

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PCdesigns thanks for that.
Also I found it strange that I brought the original etat de lieu when I moved in and so did he!!!
Therefore no matter how clean he was already comparing against the original. Obviously marking everything down a notch.
I find it really bad and hope all I hear from them is the 100sfr and that is it.
If they start charging for more that is the only time I will go mad.
Otherwise will definitely move on.
How humiliating.
Would be interesting to have a tv documentry on something like this as I think sometimes they can push there limits further than they should!.
Did he tell you what the money was going to pay for?
Seems to me Fr. 100.00 to remove a dead moth and some blue tack is a bit extreme. Can you contact a rental agency or is he the owner?
If he is the owner, there is still legal rental rights and you can ask them what the Fr. 100 would cover, why you had to pay it on the spot, and is he within his rights?
Did you get a receipt for it? If not, get one.
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Old 20.02.2008, 09:39
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

Hi,
Yeah I did get a receipt for the 100sfr claimed to be cleaning costs.
I should have told them to take it from the deposit.
They seem to get away with alot.

But then again if it is only 100sfr I am happy as there is some general wear and tear.

Lets see if they send anything else!!
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Old 20.02.2008, 09:50
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

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Hi,
Yeah I did get a receipt for the 100sfr claimed to be cleaning costs.
I should have told them to take it from the deposit.
They seem to get away with alot.

But then again if it is only 100sfr I am happy as there is some general wear and tear.

Lets see if they send anything else!!
To be entirely frank for SFr100 this is better left well alone. If you start rocking the boat then you might end up getting more than you bargained for.

If the guy is an agent for a rental company, it might be worth sending a very polite to the rental company letter saying he did not act professionally and that you would not recommend him further and just slip in the SFr. 100 for cleaning a moth...

If the guy is the rental company or owner - leave well alone.

With respect to receiving the receipt. If you have received a receipt for cleaning and have a signed copy of the etat de lieu, then there is nothing more that he can come at you for. If he tries to charge for cleaning you can simply present the CHF 100 receipt for cleaning and say it must have happened later...
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Old 20.02.2008, 11:26
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

The rental laws in this country help keep the rich, rich and the poor poor. I can't believe someone would treat you like that and I would share your anger/upset if in the same position. However, I agree with Richard, it is not worth kicking up a fuss over.

When I moved out of my previous place I had to pay 1300chf which was a joke but I was too worried about finding another place to kick up a fuss. I'd imagine that most of these rental agencies talk to each other and keep files.
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Old 20.02.2008, 12:41
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

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I know that going through an état de lieu can be stressful, but I can't help but wonder why you didn't remove the blue tac yourself before the inspection? I think most (if not all) apartment agencies would consider a place with blue stuff stuck to the walls as not completely clean. The general rule is that when you do an etat de lieu, the place should be absolutely spotless, whereas you seem to have left it with a few things for the incoming tenants to deal with. This is a big no-no in Switzerland.

I know it's probably not what you want to hear, but I think that you might be on the hook for some cleaning bills.

Heather
You're supposed to use "white tack" instead of "blue tack" in Switzerland, assuming your walls are white. That way it shouldn't leave a stain. And, of course, you are expected to remove it from the wall when you leave.
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Old 20.02.2008, 13:39
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

I'd slash his tires.
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Old 20.02.2008, 13:50
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

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I'd slash his tires.
Ahhh, the American way! (North American)
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Old 20.02.2008, 14:13
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

As a Swiss I obviously would fix the tires with blue tack

On topic and on the bright side, at least you usually move to a clean, well maintained appartment – But take note and photos of any defects to be safe. Search this thread for "Mängelliste".
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Old 20.02.2008, 14:32
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

I've got an "Etat de lieu" last month.
Things went fine, I tried to have my flat as cleaned as possible. One good hint: "Try to walk into your room, looking at the most eye-catching places, and have them cleaned as much as possible". The inspector never pay attention to some places behind your bed or the "lavabo", since the new tenant would never too.
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Old 20.02.2008, 15:12
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

A friend of mine had this problem in the UK - apparently this is a common scam by management agents in the UK, the owners are unaware it is happening. For him and others I know, the answer is at the end of the tenancy, to get in a professional cleaning company (I suspect there are similar in Switzerland) who give a guarantee on their work. You may find that it costs less to have them in for a full day - that's all it usually takes - rather than spend several days doing it yourself, and simply pass any complaints from the agent directly to them. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Jazomir
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Old 20.02.2008, 16:12
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Re: Etat de lieu - Your Rights

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The inspector never pay attention to some places behind your bed or the "lavabo", since the new tenant would never too.
I think you are seriously underestimating the power of the Swiss "état de lieu".
The Swiss Germans are even worse.
Watch them unscrew tap filters, remove drain "J trap" filter pipes (no joke), white-glove the oven, inner mail box cleanliness, and see if your keys are bent or cracked.
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