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Old 04.11.2006, 20:40
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Purchasing a property

Do you HAVE to have a permit to be able to sign the notary part of a house purchase. Obviously I have no desire to proceed and pay up the dosh without a permit, but I don't know what is legally required? I guess the answer is yes...
Thanks
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Old 04.11.2006, 21:34
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Re: Purchasing a property

Not quite sure what type of permit you are thinking of here...?
Can you be more specific?

AFAIK, EU citizens can purchase property regardless, as can C permit holders...
You are not by any chance thinking of the Handlungsfaehigkeitszeugnis
which certifies that you are a fit person to own property (appears to be required in Kt Zurich but not all others) - but it is a formality

Anyway, perhaps you can clarify your Q

Cheers
andy
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Old 05.11.2006, 08:58
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Re: Purchasing a property

Handlungsfaehigkeitszeugnis - essentially a certificate of paper that says you have not been certified and have the power of signing your own name is the only piece of paper required in Canton Zurich when we bought.

Though I suspect even that was up to the seller. Oddly we were never asked if we had the resources to pay or what nationality we were...
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Old 05.11.2006, 20:56
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Sorry to be vague...I guess that I am not certain what is required in CH. We are waiting for my partner to hopefully be granted a permit, are EU based, UK and the permit is on the basis that he doesn't work and has sufficient annual income for us not to be a burden and some capital, so I think that is what was a B permit and now becoming a CE??? or am I totally confused and dim.
We have paid a deposit and are waiting for the notary part next, but obviously don't want to do this part until we have a permit, in case we don't get one. The question is do you nowadays NEED a permit to buy in CH? I know that you used to, our contract doesn't say that you have to, the sales rep( whos english is ok but basic) says that you do but I am not certain that she understood our situation.....
We are doing this move mainly without help so I am finding it difficult obtaining idiot comprehendable (me) info.
Does that explain?
While I am here, do you know if there are likely to be delays with such a permit??
Thank-you, boy am I glad this forum exists.


ps; We are buying in Zug.

Last edited by Lou; 05.11.2006 at 21:06. Reason: Second post related to first
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Old 05.11.2006, 21:37
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Re: Purchasing a property

I have the gist of your problem now.

This seems to me to be a delicate problem and I can only suggest
that you look at the relevant sites.
A summary of the situation is here
http://www.rhf.admin.ch/themen/gba/intro-e.htm
and much more detail here:
http://www.rhf.admin.ch/themen/gba/lex-e.pdf

The key thing is that you are EU and setting up domicile here;
therefore if you have a permit (B, whatever) there is no problem.

But as I understand it you are worried about buying before having the permit - in that case it seems to me you cannot be domiciled, and therefore are in the situation of buying as a foreigner abroad - therefore it becomes a cantonal matter as to whether it is allowed. You may be allowed, it all depends but seems to me you are in the regime of buying
in the same way as an EU citizen attempting to buy a second home.

In many ways I would not worry about it - the notary simply won't let you do something that is not allowed!

Incidentally, I wonder what is the state of your German language? You realise that everything will be done in German, and the notariat will want to satisfy him/herself that you understand what you are entering into.
You may want to consider appointing a legal representative if you
are unable to do this yourself.

I would ask the notariat of the gemeinde in which your new property lies - they willl be quite helpful I am sure.

Hope this is of some use, but it seems to me that your situation does not allow anyone to give you definitive advice other than the authorities

Andy
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Old 05.11.2006, 22:13
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Re: Purchasing a property

On the permit front, a lot of L permits (temporary) are being issued at present for EU nationals, instead of B permits. There is a quota on B permits and I have heard of EU people on three year contracts being issued with an L permit, see seperate threads. Quotas get renewed every three months and will be abolished in May next year. It may be different if you own property?
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Old 05.11.2006, 22:14
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Re: Purchasing a property

Nicnac,

From what I've been able to figure out from your posts you've already found your property and have paid a deposit. Yet this kind of disturbs me:

Quote:
We are doing this move mainly without help so I am finding it difficult obtaining idiot comprehendable (me) info.
You say your partner is organising this, and by the sounds of it you've already received advice about permits. With all due respect to the members of this forum, none of us are really qualified to be giving you advice on this.

Since you are about to become home owners in your community, shouldn't you be speaking to the authorities in your community about your concerns regarding the permit? They will be far better placed to advise you than we will. Or what about the agent handling the purchase of your property, surely he should be able to point you in the right direction.

I guess my question is - apart from the free advice you've asked for on this forum, what other legwork have you done for yourselves - and was there a reason that professionals or the authorities weren't able to provide the information you needed?

In other words - I agree with Andy on this one - it is the local community office where you should be asking for help.
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Old 05.11.2006, 22:26
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Re: Purchasing a property

Hi nicanc,

I would sound a note of caution here. And that is that buying and selling property in Switzerland is not quite the same as elsewhere. Here there is a great shortage of properties for sale. You only need to compare the number of flats and houses advertised in relation to the population. Most property - other than new projects - are sold by word of mouth. And the Swiss, once having bought, tend not to move much.

This means that the properties that are advertised are available simply because there is some sort of problem with them. Ever wondered why there are so many houses advertised with a self-contained flat (a 'granny annex')? It's not that there are more of these in Switzerland, it is because these are harder to sell.

It's great that you have found somewhere, but I would be cautious about jumping in so soon with both feet without knowing a little more about the market. I would suggest living here in rented accomodation and sounding out the market first. You aren't going to miss the boat on prices by doing this. There's no 300% rise in 10 years here, it's been about only 10 - 15% over the last 10 years.

Also, a notariat will not perform things that a UK solicitor would like searches. They seem to simply witness the signing of contracts.
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Old 06.11.2006, 08:34
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Re: Purchasing a property

Quote:
Hi nicanc,

I would sound a note of caution here. And that is that buying and selling property in Switzerland is not quite the same as elsewhere. Here there is a great shortage of properties for sale. You only need to compare the number of flats and houses advertised in relation to the population. Most property - other than new projects - are sold by word of mouth. And the Swiss, once having bought, tend not to move much.

This means that the properties that are advertised are available simply because there is some sort of problem with them. Ever wondered why there are so many houses advertised with a self-contained flat (a 'granny annex')? It's not that there are more of these in Switzerland, it is because these are harder to sell.

It's great that you have found somewhere, but I would be cautious about jumping in so soon with both feet without knowing a little more about the market. I would suggest living here in rented accomodation and sounding out the market first. You aren't going to miss the boat on prices by doing this. There's no 300% rise in 10 years here, it's been about only 10 - 15% over the last 10 years.

Also, a notariat will not perform things that a UK solicitor would like searches. They seem to simply witness the signing of contracts.
A notary public performs a somewhat expanded role. They are fully responsible for ensuring that the cantonal and Country laws are respected. This will mean that an appointment with a notary public will resolve the problem. They will ask for a permit and when this is not produced will then take the appropriate action. Interestingly if you can demonstrate that you will not place a burden on Swiss society and you wish to buy a house there are generally plenty of places willing to take you and provide the permit - Zug is one of those... So I don't think you will have much problem. You can also use the "gemeinde" to put pressure on the Immigration bureau to get it out quicker.

Here Mark's general advice of contacting the local authorities is going to be your best route.
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Old 06.11.2006, 18:57
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Re: Purchasing a property

Thank-you everyone.
We are moving hopefully permanently, selling up in the UK, kids will go to school here, it is going to be our primary place of residence. We are providing this information with our permit application to show our seriousness at committing toCH.
I am in the process of obtaining a lawyer in Zug who will help me with the translation/ legal stuff, but it is through a contact and I just keep chasing that aspect.
We realised that most property that is still on websites is generally unwanted, given the market - one of the reasons that we have gone for new build. The new build is walking distance to Zug centre, so again we hope that, should we need/ want to move, we could let if necessary. I do appreciate the comment about caution.
I will contact the local authority,
Richard you say that the notary will take appropriate action...how?/ what?
When you are trying to do this on your own, with sod all German, sometimes a little 'free' help is useful. So I will say thank-you once again to those who have tolerated my stupidity and I hope to remain an active member of this forum for a long time. Please keep any comments coming.
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Old 08.11.2006, 15:49
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Re: Purchasing a property

Hi,

small word of caution for a new build. You will have to choose all the interior fixtures and fittings and most likely have the option of moving internal walls, increasing ceiling heights and the like (unless it's already built).

If you do get any such customisations it is vital here that you personally monitor what actually happens. I have heard quite a few horror stories concerning what can happen in this regard. Indeed, from memory there is a thread based on this somewhere around... I will look it up


Edit: http://www.englishforum.ch/other-gen...itzerland.html
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Old 08.11.2006, 21:13
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Re: Purchasing a property

Thank-you for this comment. I have since been in touch with both the Federal Offices of Migration and Immigration who have been amazingly helpful. Admittedly I used a german speaking friend, which I think was useful, but they were very constructive. Not too sure why we didn't do this before (my UK experience was NOT the same)...thanks for the suggestion and link.
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Old 08.11.2006, 21:25
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Re: Purchasing a property

Quote:
Thank-you everyone.
We are moving hopefully permanently, selling up in the UK, kids will go to school here, it is going to be our primary place of residence. We are providing this information with our permit application to show our seriousness at committing toCH.
I am in the process of obtaining a lawyer in Zug who will help me with the translation/ legal stuff, but it is through a contact and I just keep chasing that aspect.
We realised that most property that is still on websites is generally unwanted, given the market - one of the reasons that we have gone for new build. The new build is walking distance to Zug centre, so again we hope that, should we need/ want to move, we could let if necessary. I do appreciate the comment about caution.
I will contact the local authority,
Richard you say that the notary will take appropriate action...how?/ what?
When you are trying to do this on your own, with sod all German, sometimes a little 'free' help is useful. So I will say thank-you once again to those who have tolerated my stupidity and I hope to remain an active member of this forum for a long time. Please keep any comments coming.
A notary performs two primary functions:
1. Validating the identity or authenticity of people or documents
2. Ensuring that a contract is drawn up and agreed according to written law. Note here I use the word written. They will therefore be fully aware of who can buy what property and when and will ensure that you are legally entitled to purchase which after research I believe you are without a permit as long as this is not in one of a few areas primarily in the alps. If you are not allowed for whatever reason to meet your side of the contract they will not permit the contract to be signed.
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Old 08.11.2006, 22:08
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Re: Purchasing a property

FYi with regard to the notary. We purchased our house just a few months ago. The total time spent with notary was approximately 4 minutes. With his assistant you can another 15. But even that, most of the time was spent with us and the seller looking over the contract.
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Old 08.11.2006, 23:16
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Re: Purchasing a property

Quote:
A notary performs two primary functions:
1. Validating the identity or authenticity of people or documents
2. Ensuring that a contract is drawn up and agreed according to written law. Note here I use the word written. They will therefore be fully aware of who can buy what property and when and will ensure that you are legally entitled to purchase which after research I believe you are without a permit as long as this is not in one of a few areas primarily in the alps. If you are not allowed for whatever reason to meet your side of the contract they will not permit the contract to be signed.
...and what they don't do is the equavalent of searches as a UK solicitor does, to see if there is a right of way over your property or a motorway is to be constructed at the foot of your garden. In fact nobody seems to do this here...
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Old 26.11.2006, 18:29
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Re: Purchasing a property

Hi,

We bought our flat two years ago, when we both had B permit. The only thing which we were told about buying property in Switzerland, is that since we have B permit, they have to put a special paragraph in our contract that this property is for our personal use and that we will not rent it out for the next 5 years. It was the company which was selling it who told us this, so I think that if you are buying through an agent, he has to be able to tell you what you can and what not.

If you decide to get a lawyer involved, make sure it is someone who understands those issues. Very useful is Hauseigentümerverband, with a lot of lawyers who are helping buyers and property owners. They really do look after you and will tell you what to expect and what to be aware of.

Also, to buy a new property can become a nightmare, because you have to decide about almost every inch of the material which they use. They will not even put the wall or floor tiles without you telling them which direction. It is very very very time consuming, which goes on for around 6 months. You really have to be here to keep up with it all, it is impossible to do it from another country.
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Old 26.11.2006, 18:42
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Re: Purchasing a property

[quote=Hennie]Hi,

We bought our flat two years ago, when we both had B permit. The only thing which we were told about buying property in Switzerland, is that since we have B permit, they have to put a special paragraph in our contract that this property is for our personal use and that we will not rent it out for the next 5 years. quote]

Hi, we just bought a couple of months back. This statement was also iun the first draft of our contract, the notary included it as a point of law. They then removed this clause as it appears the law has changed. Porbably at the same they made the recent crop of changes with regard to permits...

Regards
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Old 26.11.2006, 20:55
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Re: Purchasing a property

As far as I know, that is not in the contract, but I will recheck since we are hoping to sign at the end of the week. Thank-you for that.
New builds ARE a bit of a headache, particularly when we are based in London with two kids at school. We did a flying trip to Zug last week-end and the kitchen man, who was very nice, was amazed at how fast I ordered our kitchen...so god knows what we have. But when I speak no german and they speak no english, there is not much choice and certaibly very little chit chat!
My other half chose the bathroom stuff (??) and we managed to deal with the wooden floor by explaining that the simplest thing was two give us two options with each decision needed and we would chose which we wanted.
Hoping, ?? to complete in March so I will keep you posted as to the outcome. I still have the fixtures, fittings etc to chose, all of which are in german.
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Old 28.11.2006, 21:36
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Re: Purchasing a property

Well done for the speed of choosing your kitchen and bathroom. I am really impressed! Whilst choosing the items, make sure to make as many notes (or pictures) as possible, so you can compare them with the end product in case something doesn't look right (or is missing).
I don't know if they changed the law regarding the B permit here, because since then we've got the C, but it is very useful to know this. Thanks.
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Old 28.11.2006, 21:49
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Re: Purchasing a property

Quote:
...and what they don't do is the equavalent of searches as a UK solicitor does, to see if there is a right of way over your property or a motorway is to be constructed at the foot of your garden. In fact nobody seems to do this here...
How come I missed this, must have been sleeping or beating Mr Buzby's Arkanoid score...

So here you are with a minor correction to the above. The motorway access etcetera can be found by checking in the local Gemeinde where all such applications are available. The right of way or any other right of use of your land must be in your contract and registered in the Land registry book. If it is not you have a right to sue the Notar as it is a legal requirement that such rights are listed. You will quite often find them as strangely structured phrases in the middle of your contract which make little sense and need to be deciphered. What is not done and this is where you really need to be careful is to check to find what debts or taxes are owed on the property so you can buy it and find you owe 50K in old debts. You can insist on a freehold phrase being added though which then puts the onus on the Notar and he will then squirm a bit and require an additional two days.

The strangest thing about Notars is their seeming inability to provide a copy of the contract in advance. They only ever seem to have the original to hand. My wife asked them to photocopy the contract while photocopying our permits so that she could take the contract away to read before signing it - they squirmed a lot at this.
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