Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 29.05.2015, 17:53
botzibaby1's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Samstagern
Posts: 105
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 44 Times in 25 Posts
botzibaby1 has no particular reputation at present
when to pay the cleaners

we had the handover from hell last month (the landlord lost her mind!) and she didn't accept anything. we've been in contact with the lawyer from the mieterverband and he says we should be fine with her outrageous requests. so far we've responded to her registered letter with one of our own, and the lawyer says all we can do is wait and see what her next step is.

however, my question is what do we do about our cleaning company? we hired a cleaning company with the guarantee (we have a contract), but since the cleaning wasn't accepted at the handover, we didn't pay them ((yet)). of course they're hassling us for the money, but we're not sure what to do since it wasn't clean enough.

the lawyer says that we have to pay them since they did the work, but if the cleaning wasn't accepted at the handover, isn't that the point of the guarantee? we've also been told by other people to not pay them, because then we're just out the costs of their cleaning + whatever costs the landlord tries to send our way.

what's the best way forward? we are very happy to pay the cleaners, but we don't want to get screwed by having to pay for another company that the landlord hires at our cost as well.

thanks for some feedback!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 29.05.2015, 18:08
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Formerly in Neuchatel
Posts: 2,923
Groaned at 222 Times in 151 Posts
Thanked 5,400 Times in 2,046 Posts
porsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond reputeporsch1909 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: when to pay the cleaners

If cleaning was the problem then they should be given the opportunity to clean it again to the standard required by the landlord.

If there is something else the landlord wasn't happy about then it's hardly the cleaner's fault.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank porsch1909 for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 29.05.2015, 18:16
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,400
Groaned at 434 Times in 338 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: when to pay the cleaners

Agreed.

You have to get the cleaners to come back and finish the job. If it's in the contract.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Nil for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 29.05.2015, 18:23
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,500
Groaned at 971 Times in 686 Posts
Thanked 17,484 Times in 6,852 Posts
Chuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond repute
Re: when to pay the cleaners

Quote:
View Post
we had the handover from hell last month (the landlord lost her mind!) and she didn't accept anything. we've been in contact with the lawyer from the mieterverband and he says we should be fine with her outrageous requests. so far we've responded to her registered letter with one of our own, and the lawyer says all we can do is wait and see what her next step is.

however, my question is what do we do about our cleaning company? we hired a cleaning company with the guarantee (we have a contract), but since the cleaning wasn't accepted at the handover, we didn't pay them ((yet)). of course they're hassling us for the money, but we're not sure what to do since it wasn't clean enough.

the lawyer says that we have to pay them since they did the work, but if the cleaning wasn't accepted at the handover, isn't that the point of the guarantee? we've also been told by other people to not pay them, because then we're just out the costs of their cleaning + whatever costs the landlord tries to send our way.

what's the best way forward? we are very happy to pay the cleaners, but we don't want to get screwed by having to pay for another company that the landlord hires at our cost as well.

thanks for some feedback!
So lets get this straight... you paid cleaners to clean the apartment, and they gave you a handover guarantee. Landlady hasn't accepted the standard of cleaning at the handover and you are wondering what the solution is?

Clue: get the cleaners to clean to the standard required for the handover... like was guaranteed.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 29.05.2015, 18:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 8,032
Groaned at 348 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 10,388 Times in 5,490 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: when to pay the cleaners

Weren't the cleaners present during handover, having the opportunity to finish their job? Granted, my experience is very limited, but I thought this was common practice when they guarantee such - seems very sensible to me.

If indeed they were present, how come they didn't complete their work? And why would the lawyer still say they did their work?

Methinks some crucial info is missing.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 29.05.2015, 19:26
me.anon's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: thun
Posts: 2,078
Groaned at 40 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 2,729 Times in 1,320 Posts
me.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: when to pay the cleaners

You've hired a lawyer, and he has told you the cleaners should be paid, and you are asking on an internet forum if his legal advice is correct ???

It is so that such a 'handover guarantee' can only cover the cleaning aspect of the handover. There are naturally may other things outside the scope of the cleaning guarantee, which can cause problems at the handover, like missing or damaged items.

You've implied anyway that the landlord was unreasonable, and that this view is supported by the lawyer appointed by the Mieterverband.

Based on the information you have supplied, I would probably consider paying the cleaners, and leave the lawyer to challenge any claims arising out of the handover. A lot, however, will hinge on what was stated/agreed in the handover protocol (if, indeed, such a protocol exists).
__________________
If you have difficulties with a post which contains a link to a site in one of the Swiss languages, use Google Translate or your own favourite translating browser.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank me.anon for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 29.05.2015, 22:20
botzibaby1's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Samstagern
Posts: 105
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 44 Times in 25 Posts
botzibaby1 has no particular reputation at present
Re: when to pay the cleaners

they were present during the inspection, the "inspector" said it wasn't clean enough and gave them until 16.00 the next day to have it in order. so they continued to clean and were present again during the next inspection. the "inspector" didn't show up and instead the landlady brought her "lawyer" and just said it wasn't clean enough and she didn't accept it and to get off her property.
obviously she was being unreasonable, and the cleaners did clean and reclean. and we've been working with the mieterverband lawyer and he seems very confident in the situation.
but if we pay the cleaners now before everything is settled, are they still obligated to support us afterwards if/when the landlady takes further action? we want to pay them for their service, but it wasn't accepted and that's what we thought the guarantee is for...
just asking for other experiences, for similar situations with crazy unfair handovers.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 29.05.2015, 22:27
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 14,969
Groaned at 472 Times in 377 Posts
Thanked 21,279 Times in 8,735 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: when to pay the cleaners

Quote:
View Post
they were present during the inspection, the "inspector" said it wasn't clean enough and gave them until 16.00 the next day to have it in order. so they continued to clean and were present again during the next inspection. the "inspector" didn't show up and instead the landlady brought her "lawyer" and just said it wasn't clean enough and she didn't accept it and to get off her property.
obviously she was being unreasonable,.
They can't clean if they've been thrown off the property.

What wasn't cleaned properly according to your landlady? Are you sure it's just because your cleaners are no good?

We had some cleaners clean our place before we moved in and they made such a bad job of it that when it was suggested they come back, we said no, we'd rather do it ourselves - which we did.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 29.05.2015, 22:31
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,690
Groaned at 281 Times in 232 Posts
Thanked 19,403 Times in 7,402 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: when to pay the cleaners

You don't have to pay them, and he process would go:
1) They issue Mahnung 1
2) They issue Mahnung 2
3) They go and Betreibung you
4) You contest it
5) Court

With "time" between each step. When you contest you'd have to argue that they failed to fulfil their side of the contract.

Typically in situations like this the cleaners will clean - if they fail, they will re-clean. At this point the handover is normally OK. If not the cleaning company will likely walk away and not look for payment.

Unless you are willing to share specifics of the failed cleaning (with pictures) you won't get any better advice on here than you'd get from the MV lawyer.
__________________
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet" Abraham Lincoln
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank dodgyken for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 30.05.2015, 13:04
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Albisrieden
Posts: 4,884
Groaned at 107 Times in 75 Posts
Thanked 7,243 Times in 2,680 Posts
nickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: when to pay the cleaners

It sounds like your beef is with the landlady and not the cleaning company.

If I read the first post correctly, the MV lawyer is advising just that.

You - and the cleaning company - have tried to be reasonable - and they have been prepared to address the landlady's concerns.

Rgds,
Nick
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 30.05.2015, 13:49
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Regensberg
Posts: 5
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
zaichik65 has no particular reputation at present
Re: when to pay the cleaners

I think you should just pay the cleaners, it sounds like they did their work in good faith, and the landlady is being a pain.

As for the landlady, I take she doesn't want to return the deposit (Kaution).
The landlady has to specify what wasn't cleaned properly. When you gave the flat back was there not a protocol?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 30.05.2015, 13:58
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 14,969
Groaned at 472 Times in 377 Posts
Thanked 21,279 Times in 8,735 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: when to pay the cleaners

Quote:
View Post
I think you should just pay the cleaners, it sounds like they did their work in good faith, and the landlady is being a pain.
I'm not sure how you can reach that conclusion unless you're making a lot of assumptions.

Quote:
View Post

As for the landlady, I take she doesn't want to return the deposit (Kaution).
The landlady has to specify what wasn't cleaned properly. When you gave the flat back was there not a protocol?
I did ask earlier.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 30.05.2015, 14:18
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Regensberg
Posts: 5
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
zaichik65 has no particular reputation at present
Re: when to pay the cleaners

[QUOTE=Tom1234;2397112]I'm not sure how you can reach that conclusion unless you're making a lot of assumptions.

The assumption is, that if you get the lawyers involved, the costs will quickly exceed the cost for the cleaning.

I guess the MV lawyers can pressure the landlady a bit, at least that might help. I just hope the protocol wasn't signed by botzibaby1, then the landlady's complaints (assuming she wrote them on the protocol) have been accepted. Which ever way this situation plays out you can be sure of one thing, it will cost money!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 30.05.2015, 14:44
daboyblunder's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Highhorse im Innerschweiz
Posts: 368
Groaned at 23 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 320 Times in 162 Posts
daboyblunder is considered knowledgeabledaboyblunder is considered knowledgeabledaboyblunder is considered knowledgeable
Re: when to pay the cleaners

Normal there is Zügeltermin (official moving out) dates here. If you give up an apartment before these dates you usually have to pay out the contract or if acceptable find new tenants.

If there are people waiting to move into the property then there is pressure on both side to keep both side honest and the process moving along. Delays cost money not just to the tenant but also the landlord.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 30.05.2015, 18:06
botzibaby1's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Samstagern
Posts: 105
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 44 Times in 25 Posts
botzibaby1 has no particular reputation at present
Re: when to pay the cleaners

we did have a signed protocol with some comments at the end that we had until 16.00 the next day to fulfill. in addition to the cleaning, we had to high-pressure wash the terrace and all of the cobblestone around the house because there was moss in the cracks of the stones and it was dirty (which is expected, since it is outside!), we were told to remove all the weeds of the garden, to clean the garage floor, clean out the water of the pond, and replace a lightbulb in the kitchen.

my husband spent 6 hours washing the cobblestone and the terrace, we put in 18 man hours working on the garden and removing weeds, trimming grass, cutting plants etc. we cleaned the garage floor. and of course NONE of this was covered in the initial handover protocol, but we did everything that the "inspector" said needed to be done because we obviously want our deposit back in full.

when we had the 2nd chance inspection that the "inspector" wasn't even present for, the landlady didn't even look at the garden. all she said was that it was not professionally done and she didn't accept it.

specifically to the cleaning on the protocol, it just said "nachreinigung" and there were no specifics mentioned as to what was not clean enough during the handover, or on the protocol. when she sent us a registered letter afterwards, she mentioned a few specifics about the cleaning, but never said anything when the cleaners actually had the chance to fix it.

the reason the landlady is being so insanely unreasonable is because the house is empty and she can't find a new tenant. she is trying to pass off a landscaper bill on us and a new cleaning bill by the time she finally finds someone to take the house because she would need to do that regardless.

it was just the most unfair experience i've ever dealt with.
but, how does it actually work? we say its clean and the cleaning company says its clean, but the landlady says it is not. since there was not an inspector for the 2nd evaluation, who wins??
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 30.05.2015, 18:26
slammer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,203
Groaned at 134 Times in 93 Posts
Thanked 8,935 Times in 3,388 Posts
slammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: when to pay the cleaners

The word you are looking for is "Besenrein" it varies from Kanton to Kanton but for most (and if I remember correctly that includes Pfäffikon) you only need to give your flat in a besenreiner Zustand back, you went to the length of getting a Reinigung to do it, that means tell her to Frug off and give you your Kaution back or you will drag her sorry ass to court.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank slammer for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
paying cleaners




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Online shopping, when do you have to pay tax? LillePersille Daily life 28 27.01.2019 16:39
From maternity leave to unemployment pay - when to start looking for a job? swissberg Employment 13 02.10.2016 12:01
When a company didn't pay the salary... M4rcius Employment 21 06.08.2014 12:48
When do I pay tax when deregistering teysb Leaving Switzerland 3 04.04.2013 15:19
Holiday pay when leaving the country jjoensuu Employment 8 09.07.2009 00:33


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0