Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 26.06.2015, 16:12
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

I think you are probably ok with only Chf 50.-- on the basis alone it took 25 days to get a contract issued.

One thing you may wish to consider is the market is small and incestuous here, you can quickly get black balled which may have repercussions later on along the line.

This guy/agency is certainly not going to favour foreigners, especially English speaking ones in the future.

Circumstances change i know, but why does the Landlord have to accpet and pay for your changed circumstances, i guess, understandably, you would not like pay if the Landlord's circumstances changed and he wanted to kick you out with no notice for instance.

A contract is a contrat, it needs to be respected be it written or verbal, escaping on technicalities is always possible but it can have consequences.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 26.06.2015, 16:36
Ttamasle's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ZH, AaA
Posts: 766
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 894 Times in 325 Posts
Ttamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Quote:
This guy/agency is certainly not going to favour foreigners, especially English speaking ones in the future.
I don't these gentlemen deal much with expats. This whole scenario has taken place in the sticks where there are no expats. The exposure is minimal as most people live closer to city centers. Here, in the sticks, high German is barely spoken...Between the owners and us there were five different languages used during the "verbal" agreement period.

Quote:
A contract is a contrat, it needs to be respected be it written or verbal, escaping on technicalities is always possible but it can have consequences.
We had every intent to take the place...but...things happens. If they had presented a contract within a week...this would be a different story. However...a withdrawal after more than three weeks of no contract still seemed rather safe. We respect and appreciate that they agreed with the May 1 move in date. But throughout the month of April, they continued renovation on the home and even opened the house as an art gallery for a week for a local artist.

We are not trying to escape on technicalities...we are trying to do what is stated in the regulations. If they are not able to claim losses because they failed to furnish a contract in time...that is their issue. If It was me in their position, there would have been a contract available to sign within 24 hours of acceptance of the terms. Not 25 days. We respect their position...but we may not agree with it if the law does not support such a claim for losses.

Land owners are wealthy for a reason. I don't think benevolence creates wealth.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 26.06.2015, 16:56
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy Wellies
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 8,715
Groaned at 54 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 9,622 Times in 3,557 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Quote:
View Post
and home preparation surcharge.
To me, this shows they're taking the piss.

If they knew they had any ground to stand on, they wouldn't be asking for half.

They're calling your bluff.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank mirfield for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 26.06.2015, 17:07
Ttamasle's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ZH, AaA
Posts: 766
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 894 Times in 325 Posts
Ttamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Quote:
View Post
To me, this shows they're taking the piss.

If they knew they had any ground to stand on, they wouldn't be asking for half.

They're calling your bluff.
Part of me believes this because if the claim was real...why not ask for all of it? Is the illusion of being fair somehow more likely to get a response of a timely payment?

Again...agreements aside...the application still presented a stipulation that we could have cancelled upon presentation of the contract and be obligated to pay 50 francs. I feel that if the claim of losses was real..the statement of withdrawal on the application would not have been there at all. But...it was generic application.

They, in an email, even stated that the application was an official agreement. If this is the case, then 50 francs would be the only claim possible as it is clearly stated.

Again, thank you everyone for your feedback!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 26.06.2015, 17:09
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,690
Groaned at 282 Times in 233 Posts
Thanked 19,403 Times in 7,402 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

What would you expect if the boot was on the other foot?

Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 26.06.2015, 17:11
Ttamasle's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ZH, AaA
Posts: 766
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 894 Times in 325 Posts
Ttamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Quote:
View Post
What would you expect if the boot was on the other foot?

I'd expect nothing. I would have presented the contract the moment it was possible. 25 days from application submission...this is vexing.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 26.06.2015, 17:12
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 7,923
Groaned at 320 Times in 264 Posts
Thanked 10,236 Times in 5,400 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Quote:
View Post
You're mixing things here - they do have a written contract - it's the application form.
That would mean that, whenever there's more than one applicant, the landlord broke the law (fraud or similar) as an apartment can't be rented more than once. Swiss courts would suffer from work overload.

Quote:
View Post
This is good...where is it in the Swiss Code? If a stated condition is agreed verbally (email too) as a binding agreement...why have a contract drafted at all? IF the intent is to have a written contract, does that not nullify a verbal contract?
Code of obligations §3 and §4
Granted, §3 speaks of a time limit for the offer, but I see no reason to assume other types of conditions should be treated differently.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 26.06.2015, 17:13
Clumsy Maman's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Kt Zurich
Posts: 790
Groaned at 9 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 1,098 Times in 483 Posts
Clumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond reputeClumsy Maman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Do you have legal insurance? Why not send this query over to them, and see what their response is?

I'd much rely on the advice of a qualified lawyer/ insurance company, in matters such as these, than rely on the internet.

Good luck! Hope things get better soon.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 26.06.2015, 17:15
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 11,875
Groaned at 90 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 18,100 Times in 8,043 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Once again, write this back and see what happens:

Gemäss unseren vorvertraglichen Vereinbarungen, sowie Artikel 16 des Schweizerischen Obligationenrechts bestehen keinerlei Verpflichtungen unsererseits.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 26.06.2015, 22:37
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ticino
Posts: 2,871
Groaned at 91 Times in 63 Posts
Thanked 3,654 Times in 1,470 Posts
Snoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Quote:
View Post
We had the intent to move and regret that we could not. Declining at the end came as a surprise to us too. To add...there was a statement on the application that said even if we had a written contract and broke it...We only owe them 50 francs. Sound familiar?
I think you have misinterpreted that. I think that clause means that if you apply for an apartment/house and you are accepted and you are sent a contract and then bail out before signing the contract you are liable for CHF 50 in "admin" costs.

If you have already signed the contract, you are on the hook....
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 26.06.2015, 23:30
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy Wellies
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 8,715
Groaned at 54 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 9,622 Times in 3,557 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Quote:
View Post
I think you have misinterpreted that. I think that clause means that if you apply for an apartment/house and you are accepted and you are sent a contract and then bail out before signing the contract you are liable for CHF 50 in "admin" costs.

If you have already signed the contract, you are on the hook....
You might want to re-read the thread, Snoopy.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mirfield for this useful post:
  #32  
Old 27.06.2015, 09:17
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ticino
Posts: 2,871
Groaned at 91 Times in 63 Posts
Thanked 3,654 Times in 1,470 Posts
Snoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Quote:
View Post
If you had already signed the contract, you would have been on the hook....


Expressed myself badly, but fixed that....


In my view the OP owes nothing. Not even the 50 CHF given that they never received a contract to sign.


Also, if the owner used the place himself during the empty month, then the place would not have been available to another tenant anyway.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Snoopy for this useful post:
  #33  
Old 29.06.2015, 10:13
Ttamasle's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ZH, AaA
Posts: 766
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 894 Times in 325 Posts
Ttamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Thank you everyone for the feedback. It would seem that there is an 80% consensus that nothing is owed at all, 15% consensus that 50 francs is owed and a 5% opinion that a verbal agreement is in play.

As for the verbal agreement, it would appear that there is little to no support for this in federal regulations. Its as if its a myth. More to the point, it would seem that in matters which require a written contract (a lease for example), verbal agreements are nothing more than solid terms which should be conveyed in the written form. If the written form is not issued or agreed upon...then there is no deal as a lease is one of many business deals which require a written contract. Who has ever heard of a verbal lease/rental agreement?

We have contacted a lawyer and are waiting to hear from the Meitvertrag for an opinion. Again, we understand that our needs caused some issues. But...this could have been prevented by the owners (for certain) if they actually issued a contract within days rather than weeks. We really could have been on the hook for losses. Its for the 5% chance mentioned above that there was a verbal agreement that we are looking into this deeper.

In any case...this is not quite finished. I will most certainly share the outcome though. Thank you, everyone, once again!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 29.06.2015, 10:25
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 11,875
Groaned at 90 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 18,100 Times in 8,043 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Now I am confused!?
Why a lawyer and all that stuff when you can simply write back a one sentence letter?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #35  
Old 29.06.2015, 10:37
Ttamasle's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ZH, AaA
Posts: 766
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 894 Times in 325 Posts
Ttamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Quote:
View Post
Why a lawyer and all that stuff when you can simply write back a one sentence letter?
Because there is not enough information to quell the possibility that the 5% possibility of a binding verbal agreement is not a reality. The opinion of that possibility even extends to our swiss friends who all say "I dont know...I don't think they can do that...but maybe they can...join the meitvertrag".

As some have the opinion that a verbal contract/agreement is a real thing...there has yet to be any proof that this is a reality. For us, since this is about money we don't have, we would like to respond with a "piss off" response with 100% certainty that they have nothing to stand on.

For me, there should be NO GRAY AREA at all if someone is demanding such a claim to losses. The last thing we want is for this 5% gray area to actually become a reality where were are actually liable for three months of rent.

p.s.; the lawyer is a sister to a close friend. Her opinion was free and equally as unhelpful as she too is unable to say if this is or is not something to worry about.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 29.06.2015, 10:43
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Amount of claim : Chf 1'250.--

Cost of lawyer, Chf 500/hour

Time required : 2.5 hours

Plus by pissing them off, you'll get a reputation, all these agencies are in some sort of association and speak to each other, plus the risk the bill may get bigger.....

It would have been best to meet with them and try to have found an amicalbe solution, Swiss don't like confrontation, but hit them with it and they are certain to sting back if they need too.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 29.06.2015, 10:51
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 11,875
Groaned at 90 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 18,100 Times in 8,043 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

If you don not have the money, why burn money before it gets serious. a.k.a a court?

My response is simple. Point to the contract, point to the law, deny that there is any claim based on the two pervious mentioned documents. Point.

Now it is there turn. They have to look into the law and contract, maybe contact a lawyer, burn money and time etc.

Anyway, if they are serious about the money they will go to the court regardless what a your lawyer, their lawyer, the house owner association, or the Mieterverband says.

A "piss off" response with 100% certainty that they have nothing to stand on, is called a judge's verdict.
__________________
"Whoa, careful now. These are dangerous streets for us upper-lower-middle-class types. So avoid eye contact, watch your pocketbook, and suspect everyone."
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 29.06.2015, 11:00
Ttamasle's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ZH, AaA
Posts: 766
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 894 Times in 325 Posts
Ttamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Quote:
Plus by pissing them off, you'll get a reputation, all these agencies are in some sort of association and speak to each other, plus the risk the bill may get bigger.....
There is no agency in this case. Its two private parties. An agency would have issued a contact the moment they accepted our application...not wait 25 days.

It would appear that your posting supports the 5% category. Is is possible to share some insight on why you feel settling the claim as requested is the right approach?

We found this over the weekend. This might be the gray area statement. Its almost like one should never discuss anything that might resemble an agreement because that discussion is apparently legally binding.
Attached Thumbnails
advice-needed-retraction-agreement-claimed-losses-snippet.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 29.06.2015, 11:01
Ttamasle's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ZH, AaA
Posts: 766
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 894 Times in 325 Posts
Ttamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond reputeTtamasle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Quote:
View Post
A "piss off" response with 100% certainty that they have nothing to stand on, is called a judge's verdict.
You have a point!!!
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 29.06.2015, 11:20
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 11,875
Groaned at 90 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 18,100 Times in 8,043 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Advice needed: retraction of agreement and claimed losses?

Quote:
View Post
We found this over the weekend. This might be the gray area statement. Its almost like one should never discuss anything that might resemble an agreement because that discussion is apparently legally binding.
The majority of everyday contracts are verbal or non-verbal.
- Fill up your car at the pump station for example.
- Buying nick knacks at a vending machine.
- Self-cut flowers.
- Most sale contracts in shops (out of courtesy we mostly exchange a few words anyway).
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Advice needed - Salary expectations and cost of living in Zurich VB-28 Employment 52 17.09.2014 11:12
Travelling to Chicago-advice needed on hotels and places of interest Molula General off-topic 34 03.05.2010 12:06
tenancy agreement - seeking advice MsLysandra Housing in general 2 22.04.2010 15:20
Help/Advice Needed Rental agreement Hoiley Housing in general 7 15.02.2010 23:06


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0