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Old 28.06.2015, 16:31
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Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

Sublease Nightmare

Due to not having enough time to properly search for a flat I signed a sublease when I moved to Zurich. It turned out to be a nightmare.

The leasee rents a 3 bedroom from a property management company (let's call her Trex), lives in one of the rooms, and rents the other two rooms out.

The other renter and I decided to move out because obviously no one wants to live with a Trex.

Here is some detail on how Trex makes this work to her advantage and I want to know if what she's doing is correct.

1 She wants to use our deposit to fix things as she sees fit even if the property management company doesn't think it is a damage but rather it is a wear and tear.

2 She wants to hold the deposit until 2 months after everything is fixed

3 The rent is not divided equally - she pays less than the other two subleasees and is making a profit by taking out this lease
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Old 28.06.2015, 16:41
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

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3 The rent is not divided equally - she pays less than the other two subleasees and is making a profit by taking out this lease

This may surprise you, but it's fairly common. Why should the rentr be equally divided "Trex" has taken the appartement in her name and therefore the associatd risks.
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Old 28.06.2015, 16:44
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That's what I don't understand what are the associated risks? I pay deposit to her so she is really only paying an even smaller deposit.

I also want to know if she decides to charge a ridiculous amount to "repair" wear and tear what is the right and efficient avenue to take care of that?

Thanks.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 28.06.2015 at 18:37. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 28.06.2015, 18:06
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

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That's what I don't understand what are the associated risks? I pay deposit to her so she is really only paying an even smaller deposit.
it's always risky to rent out rooms, wether you own the home or you're renting it yourself from someone else I don't think it makes much of a difference it's still your money, say the people you rented the room out to destroy everything and they're completely broke, or you don't find anyone to rent to for some months you still pay full price, or you rented to students and they move out midsemester. Anyway it's a free market.
If the rent is divided equally (assuming the rooms are exactly the same) and the contract is in everyone's name it would be a WG but it's another philosophy, and more risky for you too, because say the other moves out you end up paying everything, while when just renting a room you can leave whenever you want or don't have to worry about the other room being rented or not, the burden lies on trex while you get peace of mind.
I think that to give back the deposit the landlord has like 12 months? but it usually doesn't take that long.
To withhold the deposit he needs to have good reasons and to demostrate the repairs i guess, you can get help with that with the mieterverband.
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Old 28.06.2015, 18:32
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

If she is physically profiting from the lease, i.e you two of you pay her more than her rent for the property is then that's illegal and you should report it to the property management company.

Did you actually sign a contract with her for the room rental?

Ask to see the quotes she'd had for the proposed works before you agree to any repair work.

Next time, stay in an hotel until you find an apartment.
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Old 28.06.2015, 18:52
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

Whenever I see the word 'sub-lease' I shudder. The whole thing is legally so complicated and it so often turns into a nightmare. Now, was the sublet furnished or not furnished- it makes a big difference.

She will be in big trouble with the landlord if she sublet without asking permission and without proper contract- and could be heavily fined (eg they can go back as long in time as they wish to get the money she made out of sublet back) and lose her flat too.

Again, the same advice, join ASLOCA or MIETVERBAND asap- and ask them for advice. But remember, and this is a warning for others- Asloca will not give the same legal advice and support as if you had joined earlier- and not waited to be in 'trouble' to do so.
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Old 28.06.2015, 18:57
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

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no one wants to live with a Trex.
Handy for baking, though.
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Old 28.06.2015, 19:12
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

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Again, the same advice, join ASLOCA or MIETVERBAND asap- and ask them for advice. But remember, and this is a warning for others- Asloca will not give the same legal advice and support as if you had joined earlier- and not waited to be in 'trouble' to do so.
Yes they will.
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Old 28.06.2015, 19:23
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

Depends very much on the office and how busy they are. They will give general advice, but not necessarily legal support. Clear in their documentation, if I remember rightly.
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Old 28.06.2015, 19:57
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

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Depends very much on the office and how busy they are. They will give general advice, but not necessarily legal support. Clear in their documentation, if I remember rightly.
You don't remember correctly.

The three month waiting period only applies if you need represented by a lawyer. Even then you will get the same level of representation you just pay more for it. Also in places like NE you are assigned a lawyer at conciliation boards so don't need to find your own lawyer

In terms of levels of advice and any letters that will be written by the lawyers etc. this will be the same level for new members as it is for old members.

https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv-zh/h...ch-anwalt.html
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Old 28.06.2015, 21:01
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

220 per hour + expenses/costs is quite a lot of money for some ..(before the end of the 3 months waiting period)
So I'd still advise joining from the very start- to ensure you are covered- as you need to be a member for over 3 months to get full cover.
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Old 28.06.2015, 21:14
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

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220 per hour + expenses/costs is quite a lot of money for some ..(before the end of the 3 months waiting period)
So I'd still advise joining from the very start- to ensure you are covered- as you need to be a member for over 3 months to get full cover.
That's only for legal representation.

https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv-zh/h...tberatung.html

For tenancy advice it's free and there is no waiting period.
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Old 28.06.2015, 22:54
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

We should have a "sticky" with things not to do and I will add to avoid all WG, shared and sublease situations where you are not a named tenant.


I have helped more than just a few clients who managed to get themselves into a mess. It is not easy to fix.


The worst part is that in most cases the property manager did not care what was going on. They got their monthly rent, (paid by the named tenant) end of story.
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Old 28.06.2015, 23:14
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

Landlord (Vermieter)
> Tenant (Mieter/Hauptmieter)
> Subtenant 1 + Subtenant 2 (Untermieter)

Say the flat has 3 rooms, all equally sized. Everyone uses all communal spaces equally. The tenant is then allowed to charge the subtenants such a price for the sublease that he makes a maximum of a 10% profit IIRC. Meaning:

Lease is 3000.-. He can charge the subtenants not only 2000.-, but 2200.- - 2300.-.

Associated risks of subletting are that the tenant remains responsible for all damages to the flat as he is the one in a legal relationship with the landlord, but the subtenants aren't.


If, upon acquiring people to share the lease with, the original tenant (Mieter) wants to share responsibilities and the subtenants don't want to pay more than the original tenant (again, assuming that the three bedrooms (or, spaces only used by the individuals and not by everyone) are of equal size and everyone is using all communal areas), the original tenant has the possibility to ask the landlord to alter the original lease, adding the new tenants, this can be done if the landlord agrees. Then the original tenant and the new tenants are all called Mitmieter (tenants) and all have equal rights and responsibilities.

In general, the costs for a flat don't have to be split evenly even when everyone uses all communal areas, if the rooms which are only used by the individuals (normally, the bedrooms) are of different sizes.

So:

Things depend on the tenant's and the landlord's legal relationship to the subtenant. This relationship will determine the amount of liability towards the landlord. The amount of liability (equal distribution - Mitmieter, or all of it resting with one person - Hauptmieter/Untermieter) determines the legality of the main tenant's (Hauptmieter's) profit of a max. of 10%.
Another relevant factor is the size of the rooms in the flat in question.

Last edited by glowjupiter; 29.06.2015 at 00:04.
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Old 28.06.2015, 23:26
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

Thanks gj - do you know the difference 'furnished' or 'unfrunished' makes?
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Old 28.06.2015, 23:57
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

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Thanks gj - do you know the difference 'furnished' or 'unfrunished' makes?
2 weeks notice period for furnished subleased rooms vs 3 months for unfurnished ones. CO 262 and following, esp. 266, 266c and 266e.

If the landlord ends the contract with the tenant, the contract between the tenant and any type of subtenant (Mitmieter or Untermieter) ends, at the latest, on the same date as the contract between landlord and tenant. Meaning that a subtenant cannot live in a flat longer than a tenant.

Remember that any contract's existence should be verifiable (especially if things go haywire and one ends up in an arbitration procedure or in court) and that leases are valid even without being written down unless a written contract as a condition of validity is agreed upon between tenant and landlord (verbally or in writing). ALWAYS get written contracts to be on the safe side, and copy them once signed and dated.

HTH

Last edited by glowjupiter; 29.06.2015 at 02:10.
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Old 29.06.2015, 00:00
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

Thanks I knew you could do it But check line one of your text, as it is confusing - merci.
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Old 29.06.2015, 00:01
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Re: Sublease Nightmare [ZH] - subleasee's right and deposit return

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Thanks I knew you could do it But check line one of your text, as it is confusing - merci.
Corrected it, is it clearer now?
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