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  #21  
Old 24.07.2015, 11:20
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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Kabelanschluss (cable connection) - 42.4k, my share is 103.10 - no idea what this is doing on the bill or why it is so massively high! .
This one seems to be about right.
https://support.upc-cablecom.ch/app/...etail/a_id/423
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  #22  
Old 24.07.2015, 11:23
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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That will be the often discussed cablecom connection fee of about 34 chf per month. If you have a cable outlet then you pay this fee regardless of whether you use it or not unless you have it officially blocked off.
WTF?!

I moved in and had no Internet for 2 months while the building owner and Sunrise argued about whose fault it was that the wiring was mixed up but have never had anything to do with Cablecom. Are there any guides online of how to block this off? I'm not paying 400CHF a year for a service I don't use (other than Billag of course...)
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  #23  
Old 24.07.2015, 11:27
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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WTF?!

I moved in and had no Internet for 2 months while the building owner and Sunrise argued about whose fault it was that the wiring was mixed up but have never had anything to do with Cablecom. Are there any guides online of how to block this off? I'm not paying 400CHF a year for a service I don't use (other than Billag of course...)
Here two example letters. Send to your landlord the filled in "Musterbrief – Kündigung Kabelfernsehen (Akonto in NK abgerechnet)"

https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv/miet...-internet.html
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  #24  
Old 24.07.2015, 11:35
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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240CHF is cheap unless it's a very small apartment. Basically, this is a trick they use to make you think the apartment is cheaper. Our previous tenant sent us detailed bills which included a breakdown of costs of regular maintenance, gardening, heating etc. In other words, they knew damn well the standard Nebenkosten would not cover the true expenses.
The law changed some years ago that the NK has to be within a few % of the real costs.
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Old 24.07.2015, 11:39
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

So, letter done for the Kabelanschluss. There's a template on the Sunrise site, I wish I knew about that earlier...

http://www1.sunrise.ch/is-bin/INTERS...8AAAE1FHY1VKSh
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Old 24.07.2015, 11:53
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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It would be best for you to join the Mieterverband as you do not understand how things are calculated here.

The Nebenkosten is an advance payment on the final bills, and at first is always presented as low as possible. The final Nebenkosten amount is sometimes 50% higher. The agency take their fees as well.

For a 100 square meter apartment, with 3 or 4 people, I would calculate at least Fr 3,500 per year Nebenkosten, plus the electricity.
Mieterverband has never really helped us deal with our slumlord. When we called in January over our faulty wiring, they basically told us we should wait for the slumlord to return from the first of his 6 week long holidays because we couldn't expect them to refund us for works done. Then when we saw an electrician, he told us the opposite, did the work and sent the bill to the slumlord.
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  #27  
Old 24.07.2015, 11:59
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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So, letter done for the Kabelanschluss. There's a template on the Sunrise site, I wish I knew about that earlier...

http://www1.sunrise.ch/is-bin/INTERS...8AAAE1FHY1VKSh
Presumably you have some other service provider for Internet/ telephone etc if you have them?
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  #28  
Old 24.07.2015, 14:28
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Update:

Having done some investigation and made a few phone calls it appears that the issue with the size of the bill is as follows....

There is a contract in place with the company which supplies the heating and hot water with a standard charge depending on the power of the heating available in the apartment. As our place has a 4KW system that charge is 230 CHF per quarter, irrespective of usage! In this period we spent 9 CHF on heating, but still had to pay the standard charge as per the contract.

I've referred back to our contract and the Nebenkosten are broken down as follows - Heizung/Warmwasser 95 CHF, Betriebkosten akonto 144 CHF.

If the standard charge for heating is 76 CHF per month before you've even turned it on HOW ON EARTH IS 19CHF ENOUGH TO COVER HEATING USE, AND HOT WATER!

On what planet was the moron who put this together? The non-heating and water cost overspend is minimal, but the utilities bill is over double what was budgeted.

It's a little frustrating that the building owner can sign a contract even though it isn't them that is paying the bills and there's nothing I can do about it. Basically, I'm in for 1k a year of fixed cost before I even turn on the heating so the Nebenkosten is never going to cover the total amount.
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  #29  
Old 24.07.2015, 14:47
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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If the standard charge for heating is 76 CHF per month before you've even turned it on HOW ON EARTH IS 19CHF ENOUGH TO COVER HEATING USE, AND HOT WATER!
Well, it's not enough. Never was and never will be. No matter where you rent.

Would you have rented the apartment if Nebenkosten were ~400 CHF from the start bringing the total over 3000 CHF a month?
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  #30  
Old 24.07.2015, 14:50
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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I've referred back to our contract and the Nebenkosten are broken down as follows - Heizung/Warmwasser 95 CHF, Betriebkosten akonto 144 CHF.
Do I read it right? Only the "Betriebkosten" are "Akonto". Heating and warm water are "pauschal"/ flat fee.

This would fit with a heating contracting contract where you pay a flat fee regardless of usage. But for what are the extra CHF 19 used ?
After all CHF 920 per year for heating and warm water irrespective of oil price and usage is not much and could be a good deal in the future. Question is for how long, 10 years may be?

Now the big question remains: Why do they end up with CHF 260 instead of CHF 144 Betriebkosten per month? Quite a high number.

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Well, it's not enough. Never was and never will be. No matter where you rent.
I got CHF 35 back last year. So my landlords estimations was pretty spot on.
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  #31  
Old 24.07.2015, 14:58
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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Well, it's not enough. Never was and never will be. No matter where you rent.

Would you have rented the apartment if Nebenkosten were ~400 CHF from the start bringing the total over 3000 CHF a month?
Nope, 3k was top of the budget and although we looked at a few places which were more we wouldn't have gone with them at 3.2k


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Do I read it right? Only the "Betriebkosten" are "Akonto". Heating and warm water are "pauschal"/ flat fee.

This would fit with a heating contracting contract where you pay a flat fee regardless of usage. But for what are the extra CHF 19 used ?
After all CHF 920 per year for heating and warm water irrespective of oil price and usage is not much and could be a good deal in the future. Question is for how long, 10 years may be?

Now the big question remains: Why do they end up with CHF 260 instead of CHF 144 Betriebkosten per month? Quite a high number.


I got CHF 35 back last year. So my landlords estimations was pretty spot on.
There is a flat fee of 230 per quarter, but there is a usage charge on top. That's just for heating, there was an additional charge of 60 for water heating, and 240 for wasser & abwasser.

Total Nebenkosten is 240 per month but out of that there are lifts, cleaning, the now infamous cable connection and so on. The 144 for other costs isn't far out, from what I can see.
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  #32  
Old 24.07.2015, 15:24
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

[QUOTE=jamiebae;2423817]
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I've referred back to our contract and the Nebenkosten are broken down as follows - Heizung/Warmwasser 95 CHF, Betriebkosten akonto 144 CHF.
There is a flat fee of 230 per quarter, but there is a usage charge on top.
Maybe you quoted your rental contract wrongly, but it still looks like you and your landlord agreed on a flat fee for heating and warm water. Bad for him he has not a flat fee from the energy provider.

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That's just for heating, there was an additional charge of 60 for water heating, and 240 for wasser & abwasser..
240 for Water?
http://www.horgen.ch/dl.php/de/54cb8...rgebuehren.pdf
http://www.horgen.ch/dl.php/de/527b5...20130701_1.pdf

159 / year for waste water
7 + 2.5 / month for fresh water
1.5 + 1.9 / m^3 used

For three month that is (240 - 40 - 28) / 3.4 = 45 m^3 or 500 liters a day.
Which would fit with a 3 -5 persons household. http://www.trinkwasser.ch/dt/framese....htm~mainFrame
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  #33  
Old 24.07.2015, 15:54
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

The copy of the invoice for the water/heating is from an energy company rather than the Gemeinde and helpfully gives no indication of the units of measurement in any obvious way. It looks like 40 m^3 of water billed (as fresh water at 2.8 CHF per unit, and waste at 3.1 per unit), then an additional 60 for water heating.

There are two adults, plus a toddler in our family, so I think this is probably close to the truth, but might be wrong...
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  #34  
Old 25.07.2015, 09:23
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

The whole Nk thing is not transparent. Best to go to MV and get it sorted out and get it done with. Don't compromise too much, though.
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  #35  
Old 15.05.2021, 19:02
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Adding to this thread - We just realised that we have been paying rent for 10+ years with 'Nebenkosten Akonto' which means theoretically the landlord could have been sending us an extra account each year for these costs.


Our landlord has not done this - is he 'required' to do this ?



We have a small storeroom as well in a separate property, and in there we have been getting a refund each year as the agreed NK for the shared heating was higher than the actual cost...



So, if it goes 'under' is the landlord allowed to pocket the difference, or vice versa, if it goes 'over' can we expect a huge bill ?



In our previous apartment we definitely got a 'huge bill' when we moved out, for 2 years of accumulated low NK.
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  #36  
Old 15.05.2021, 19:38
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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Adding to this thread - We just realised that we have been paying rent for 10+ years with 'Nebenkosten Akonto' which means theoretically the landlord could have been sending us an extra account each year for these costs.


Our landlord has not done this - is he 'required' to do this ?



We have a small storeroom as well in a separate property, and in there we have been getting a refund each year as the agreed NK for the shared heating was higher than the actual cost...



So, if it goes 'under' is the landlord allowed to pocket the difference, or vice versa, if it goes 'over' can we expect a huge bill ?



In our previous apartment we definitely got a 'huge bill' when we moved out, for 2 years of accumulated low NK.
You should get a statement of the costs each year from the landlord / agency also showing the credit for what you paid and the final balance.

Then there are several options - pay / receive any balance, adjust the payment to better match the costs, adjust the payment to use up / pay the balance in the next year etc.
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Old 15.05.2021, 19:56
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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You should get a statement of the costs each year from the landlord / agency also showing the credit for what you paid and the final balance.

Then there are several options - pay / receive any balance, adjust the payment to better match the costs, adjust the payment to use up / pay the balance in the next year etc.

Is there a consequence if the landlord refuses/neglects to provide these accounts ?
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  #38  
Old 15.05.2021, 20:11
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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Is there a consequence if the landlord refuses/neglects to provide these accounts ?
You have a right to inspect the documentation (i.e. original bills for the costs):

https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/2...7/en#art_257_b

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Art. 257b
1 Accessory charges for residential and commercial premises are the actual outlays made by the landlord for services connected with the use of the property, such as heating, hot water and other operating costs, as well as public taxes arising from the use of the property.

2 The landlord must allow the tenant on his request to inspect the documentation for such outlays.
Asking for a basic statement of these costs would clearly be reasonable, and in line with normal practice, with demanding the underlying statements the unspoken pressure.

I guess if you don't get them you would refuse to pay the costs until you do (or pay them into an escrow account for safety).
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  #39  
Old 16.05.2021, 06:06
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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The whole Nk thing is not transparent. Best to go to MV and get it sorted out and get it done with. Don't compromise too much, though.
This is correct. The whole NK thing is a mess and not transparent. The Bill's going to the landlord etc and you have to go there to inspect the Bill's etc.

Weird system
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  #40  
Old 16.05.2021, 10:30
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Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

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This is correct. The whole NK thing is a mess and not transparent. The Bill's going to the landlord etc and you have to go there to inspect the Bill's etc.

Weird system
I'm interested in how you think this could work better. Granted I think the cable connection through the landlord should be done away with a long time ago. The rest though, how would you propose to fix the issue?
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