Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 16.05.2021, 15:29
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 13,131
Groaned at 218 Times in 182 Posts
Thanked 15,264 Times in 7,847 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
I'm interested in how you think this could work better. Granted I think the cable connection through the landlord should be done away with a long time ago. The rest though, how would you propose to fix the issue?
The cable connection IS done away with a long time ago.

If NK are "a konto" there must be a account of charges each year (most get them in summer as there is too much book-keeping to do by December already).
If one wants to see the bills in total they have a certain time-frame the landlord gives to do this at the landlord's. Reason: A lot of paper to send around if everybody wants their own copy (which probably then won't be studied by 70% of the recipients).

Utilities statements/payments can be demanded 5 years back. After 5 years demands of either side are time-barred
.
__________________
It's all a matter or perspective.
So move your butt and look at it from the other side
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 16.05.2021, 15:33
swisspea's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Around Lake Zurich
Posts: 6,405
Groaned at 42 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 6,561 Times in 3,001 Posts
swisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
You have a right to inspect the documentation (i.e. original bills for the costs):

https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/2...7/en#art_257_b


Asking for a basic statement of these costs would clearly be reasonable, and in line with normal practice, with demanding the underlying statements the unspoken pressure.

I guess if you don't get them you would refuse to pay the costs until you do (or pay them into an escrow account for safety).



In our case, he has not actually sent any account at all - since we moved in in May 2010!!!
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 16.05.2021, 18:48
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basle
Posts: 2,907
Groaned at 76 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 2,025 Times in 1,178 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
In our case, he has not actually sent any account at all - since we moved in in May 2010!!!
Possibly conveniently pocketing the extra you've paid, or not.
I get about 1,000 CHF back each year.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Landers for this useful post:
  #44  
Old 17.05.2021, 13:41
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 9,833
Groaned at 548 Times in 399 Posts
Thanked 13,198 Times in 6,851 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
Adding to this thread - We just realised that we have been paying rent for 10+ years with 'Nebenkosten Akonto' which means theoretically the landlord could have been sending us an extra account each year for these costs.


Our landlord has not done this - is he 'required' to do this ?
Yes.
Quote:
View Post
So, if it goes 'under' is the landlord allowed to pocket the difference, or vice versa, if it goes 'over' can we expect a huge bill ?
No, yes.
Check your contract and make sure it's indeed "Nebenkosten Akonto", rather than "Nebenkosten pauschal".

Another thing is that obligation payment is generally no longer enforceable after ten years (after only 2 or 5 years in some well-defined cases). However, you can't enforce the payment without knowing the amount due, if any, which requires action by the agency/owneer, so your case probably falls under the exception given in §134.6 in the Code of Obligations and the ten years don't apply. Long story short, the 10yr countdown probably doesn't start until after you've received the final bill for the respective period.

There is of course a risk that the bill will show money owed by you, but that risk seems low (ask the Mietverband about this, too). Since any total amount over ten years will probably be in the 4-5-digit range it's recommended for you to join the Mieterverband.ch (IMHO every foreigner who rents should when they arrive, and most renters in general) and ask for their opinion whether the balance is likely to be in your favor or not, and how to proceed. It'll probably start with a registered letter demanding the bill by year in not more than 20 business days.

Further, there's strength in numbers and reduced effort and costs for each participant. Talk to you neighbors and get them to join the effort, but make sure you agree beforehand on who pays what share of the cost if things may get expensive, and do put that in writing.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #45  
Old 17.05.2021, 14:40
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 3,754
Groaned at 75 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 4,537 Times in 2,076 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
In our case, he has not actually sent any account at all - since we moved in in May 2010!!!
How much do you pay each month?

For a modern 3 bedroom flat we paid 260/month which included heating, gardening, janitor / common areas, water & sewerage, cable connection.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 17.05.2021, 15:28
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basle
Posts: 2,907
Groaned at 76 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 2,025 Times in 1,178 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
How much do you pay each month?

For a modern 3 bedroom flat we paid 260/month which included heating, gardening, janitor / common areas, water & sewerage, cable connection.
And how much do you get back?

I suppose if you;ve paid on account and the landlord never gives you a bill you can ask for your money back.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 17.05.2021, 16:25
Downerbuzz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: town not big enough for the both of us
Posts: 990
Groaned at 48 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 1,206 Times in 508 Posts
Downerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
The cable connection IS done away with a long time ago.


.
It's not though. You can have your connection "plombiert" but the vast majority of apartments still have this charged through their NK.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 17.05.2021, 17:08
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basle
Posts: 2,907
Groaned at 76 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 2,025 Times in 1,178 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
It's not though. You can have your connection "plombiert" but the vast majority of apartments still have this charged through their NK.
How do you know?
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 17.05.2021, 17:15
Downerbuzz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: town not big enough for the both of us
Posts: 990
Groaned at 48 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 1,206 Times in 508 Posts
Downerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
How do you know?
Because I probably see more Nebenkosten Abrechnungen in a day than most people will see in a lifetime?
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 17.05.2021, 17:23
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 13,131
Groaned at 218 Times in 182 Posts
Thanked 15,264 Times in 7,847 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
It's not though. You can have your connection "plombiert" but the vast majority of apartments still have this charged through their NK.
That would be a grave mistake (friendly presumption) or a cheeky fraud (unfriendly presumption) of the landlord.
UPC stopped charging landlords years ago (I would have to go dig for the information my landlord sent me back then about it) and includes the cable costs in the "Abos".
No need to "plombieren" anymore either - you use it or you don't.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 17.05.2021, 18:15
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basle
Posts: 2,907
Groaned at 76 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 2,025 Times in 1,178 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
That would be a grave mistake (friendly presumption) or a cheeky fraud (unfriendly presumption) of the landlord.
UPC stopped charging landlords years ago (I would have to go dig for the information my landlord sent me back then about it) and includes the cable costs in the "Abos".
No need to "plombieren" anymore either - you use it or you don't.
The abos only include the cable fee if you change to one of those abos. If you've kept your old abo then the cable fee is still included. At least that was the case only a few years ago.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 17.05.2021, 21:42
Downerbuzz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: town not big enough for the both of us
Posts: 990
Groaned at 48 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 1,206 Times in 508 Posts
Downerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
That would be a grave mistake (friendly presumption) or a cheeky fraud (unfriendly presumption) of the landlord.
UPC stopped charging landlords years ago (I would have to go dig for the information my landlord sent me back then about it) and includes the cable costs in the "Abos".
I'm sorry, I don't know what your landlord told you but that information is just incorrect.

https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv/miet...-internet.html
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 20.05.2021, 05:30
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,185
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 77 Times in 72 Posts
danny has earned some respectdanny has earned some respect
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
I'm interested in how you think this could work better. Granted I think the cable connection through the landlord should be done away with a long time ago. The rest though, how would you propose to fix the issue?
By giving each tenant direct access to the heating company. The way it is for EWZ. The way it is in North America.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 20.05.2021, 08:30
Downerbuzz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: town not big enough for the both of us
Posts: 990
Groaned at 48 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 1,206 Times in 508 Posts
Downerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
By giving each tenant direct access to the heating company. The way it is for EWZ. The way it is in North America.
and for communal areas?
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 20.05.2021, 08:52
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 3,754
Groaned at 75 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 4,537 Times in 2,076 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
And how much do you get back?

I suppose if you;ve paid on account and the landlord never gives you a bill you can ask for your money back.
It was +/- ~50CHF at the end of the year and we paid / received this balance.

We adjusted the NK after our first two years because we were paying about 40 CHF p.m. too much, probably because the previous tenants were Swiss and had the heating several degrees higher than us Brits. Or because it was just rounded to 400 pm and they never said anything.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 20.05.2021, 11:19
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 13,131
Groaned at 218 Times in 182 Posts
Thanked 15,264 Times in 7,847 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
I'm sorry, I don't know what your landlord told you but that information is just incorrect.

https://www.mieterverband.ch/mv/miet...-internet.html
The text you linked was written before 2017.

And 2017 could be about right, the time my landlord reacted to the then imminent future.
<<Hat der Vermieter die Grundvereinbarung gekündigt und bezahlt somit keine Gebühr mehr an den Netzbetreiber, gilt dies als Vertragsänderung, die er dem Mieter rechtzeitig auf einem amtlichen Formular mitteilen muss>>
That's what she did. In an email though, not on an authorative form but it was good enough for us and the amount on the rent was removed when her contract ended.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 20.05.2021, 11:24
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 13,131
Groaned at 218 Times in 182 Posts
Thanked 15,264 Times in 7,847 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
By giving each tenant direct access to the heating company. The way it is for EWZ. The way it is in North America.
That would only work with "Fernwärme" (teleheating?)
Most houses have their own heating system, implemented, run and maintained by the landlord. It's neither possible nor wise (costs) to order/buy/store your own share of fuel/gas.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank curley for this useful post:
  #58  
Old 20.05.2021, 12:59
Stoker177's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: ZuriOberland, CH
Posts: 221
Groaned at 16 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 188 Times in 89 Posts
Stoker177 is considered knowledgeableStoker177 is considered knowledgeableStoker177 is considered knowledgeable
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Highly recommend you join your local MV... I received a bill for 3000 francs nearly 2 years after leaving a house I rented for gardening.
I refused to pay it on the grounds the gardeners were appointed a month after I left and I wasn't informed or advised or have an option to discuss. In addition, a tree needed felling which s not a tenants responsibility.

I ignored the first letter then a second arrived a couple of months later threatening me that they would charge me an additional 35 francs for each letter thereafter.....

The MV were very helpful, wrote the agents a terse letter and have never heard anything since.
It helped that I kept all the tenant contracts and confirmation that they were happy when I left the property and I got my deposit within a month.

Basically the agents, Hackenjos were asked to do the work by the new tenants or the landlord and either he didn't refund them or they just wanted to shaft he foreigner.. they were terrible agents and the landlord was a nosey little twonk....hence the reason we left.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 20.05.2021, 15:09
Downerbuzz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: town not big enough for the both of us
Posts: 990
Groaned at 48 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 1,206 Times in 508 Posts
Downerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond reputeDownerbuzz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
The text you linked was written before 2017.

And 2017 could be about right, the time my landlord reacted to the then imminent future.
<<Hat der Vermieter die Grundvereinbarung gekündigt und bezahlt somit keine Gebühr mehr an den Netzbetreiber, gilt dies als Vertragsänderung, die er dem Mieter rechtzeitig auf einem amtlichen Formular mitteilen muss>>
That's what she did. In an email though, not on an authorative form but it was good enough for us and the amount on the rent was removed when her contract ended.

Well that's good but once again,that's your specific situation. The majority of households in Switzerland, UPC ( sometimes it's another local company) charges the landlord and the costs are then distributed in the Nebenkosten.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 21.05.2021, 04:48
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,185
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 77 Times in 72 Posts
danny has earned some respectdanny has earned some respect
Re: Bill for extra Nebenkosten over 12 months later

Quote:
View Post
and for communal areas?
That would be pauschal. All inclusive flat fee.

Only the heating is the main problem where its indirect. Although I do see from the post above that gardening can be a high cost as part of the communal costs but again make it a flat fee.

This practice if having heating bills sent by the landlord is not transparent.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Extra" nebenkosten for water Peg A Housing in general 15 24.05.2014 18:57
Yearly extra nebenkosten charges - one bill or several? little_isabella Housing in general 11 26.07.2012 21:41
Nebenkosten [extra rental costs] bill includes lots of extras. Please help! TheForeignField Housing in general 42 19.01.2012 12:56
Swiss law on Extra Nebenkosten Scam griffo56 Housing in general 24 24.01.2011 15:00
I recieved a bill from Fitness Center 1 Year Later esto Complaints corner 8 18.12.2009 16:03


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0