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  #21  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:01
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Re: Berechnungsgrundlagen and Vorbehalte

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They can increase, "if the interest rate is increased" up to 10%. No?
The 10% applies to the rent you pay and not to the interest rate.
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And it applies to reduction as well, no?
This 10% does not apply to reduction.
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My main concern is that does this clause gives them the right to increase rent as they see fit?
They can raise the rent up to a total of 10% extra for the reasons specified in the contract, given those reasons have become valid.
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Another question: What if the box for "10%" was empty? Does it mean they can increase unboundedly?
If no percentage is named than no raise is allowed.
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And what about "decreasing the rent"? Because it seems interest rates are being decreases right now, no?
You are in your right to demand a decrease in the rent if for example the reference-rent is lowered by the government, and there are other reasons specified in the law, and since the law takes care of all of this there is no need to mention this in the contract. As for the landlord raising the rent the law specifies that this has to be in the contract, and the wording has to obey regulations.

My advice would be to take your contract to somebody who understands German, and knows what he/she is reading and ask him/her to explain the contract to you.
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  #22  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:02
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Re: Rent increase reservation on new contracts

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"Kostendeckende Bruttorendite" has actually little to do with the actual costs.

Its legal definition is: Referenzzinssatz + 2%. The idea is roughly that 1% is for maintenance, 1% is for profit, and Referenzinssatz is to cover mortgage payments, currently at 1.75% - but likely they are actually paying much less than that. These days it's easy to get even long term mortgages under 1%.

27% Vorbehalt means they're claiming that they earn 3.75% / 1.27 = 2.95% of apartment's cost in rent per year. This is not so high, but more than enough to run a building and make some profit in light of today's sub-1% mortgages.

The real reason they put this Vorbehalt probably is that Referenzzinssatz statistic is going to drop to 1.5% in half a year or so at current rates, which would normally automatically entitle the tenant to request a deduction. For new buildings, "Kostendeckende Bruttorendite" is one of the criterias allowed by law to justify rents. If they didn't put it into the contract, they could still use that criterion to defend the rent later, but would have to carry the burden of proof and show your the books if you fight rent reduction rejection. Now they can just point you to the contract...
Similar question here. I don't still get whether that clause makes a "huge" difference or not. Has anybody seen their rent increase only because that clause was in the contract?
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  #23  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:05
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Re: Rent increase reservation on new contracts

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Similar question here. I don't still get whether that clause makes a "huge" difference or not. Has anybody seen their rent increase only because that clause was in the contract?
It makes a huge difference since it is what allows a raise or not. Just wait till the reference rent raises again, then a lot of us will suddenly realise what this is all about.
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  #24  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:13
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Re: Rent increase reservation on new contracts

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It makes a huge difference since it is what allows a raise or not. Just wait till the reference rent raises again, then a lot of us will suddenly realise what this is all about.
Doesn't an interest rate increase automatically allow the landlord to increase the rent?
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  #25  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:16
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Re: Rent increase reservation on new contracts

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Doesn't an interest rate increase automatically allow the landlord to increase the rent?
Nope.

A landlord can only raise the rent according to law, law sets terms for all of such, and also specifies what and how things should be mentioned in the contract.
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  #26  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:20
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Re: Berechnungsgrundlagen and Vorbehalte

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The 10% applies to the rent you pay and not to the interest rate.This 10% does not apply to reduction.They can raise the rent up to a total of 10% extra for the reasons specified in the contract, given those reasons have become valid.If no percentage is named than no raise is allowed.

You are in your right to demand a decrease in the rent if for example the reference-rent is lowered by the government, and there are other reasons specified in the law, and since the law takes care of all of this there is no need to mention this in the contract. As for the landlord raising the rent the law specifies that this has to be in the contract, and the wording has to obey regulations.

My advice would be to take your contract to somebody who understands German, and knows what he/she is reading and ask him/her to explain the contract to you.
The contract refers to article 11 of "Allgmeine Bedingungen fur Wohnraume" for changing the rent..
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  #27  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:23
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Re: Berechnungsgrundlagen and Vorbehalte

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The contract refers to article 11 of "Allgmeine Bedingungen fur Wohnraume" for changing the rent..
Well, time to read that one
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  #28  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:37
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Re: Rent increase reservation on new contracts

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A landlord can only raise the rent according to law
And increase in Refererenzzinssatz allows the raise by law without any further ado. Each 25bp raise entitles to 3% rent increase + a couple another adjustments for inflation.

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also specifies what and how things should be mentioned in the contract.
Nonsense, the law doesn't prescribe the form of a rental contract. In fact, simplest possible contract only needs to say who rents what when and at what price, that's all. When they send a talmud sized contract, it's either repeating many of the things already set in stone by law or tilting the rest of things in landlord's favor, so read carefully when they try to shove here
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  #29  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:39
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Re: Rent increase reservation on new contracts

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And increase in Refererenzzinssatz allows the raise by law without any further ado. Each 25bp raise entitles to 3% rent increase + a couple another adjustments for inflation.
It has to be announced, and it has to respect the terms, and it has to be mentioned in the contract.
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Nonsense, the law doesn't prescribe the form of rental contract. In fact, simplest possible contract only needs to say who rents what when and at what price, that's all. When they send a talmud sized contract, it's either repeating many of the things already set in stone by law or tilting the rest of things in landlord's favor
Not nonsense since we are speaking of raises and not about the contract in general.
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  #30  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:49
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Re: Berechnungsgrundlagen and Vorbehalte

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Well, time to read that one
"Der Vermieter kann mietzinpassungen und anderen einseitigen Vertragsänderungen zu Lasten des Mieters auf jeden kundigungstermin vornehmen. Er muss dem Mieter die entsprechende Anpassung mindestens zehn Tage vor Beginn der Kundigungsfrist in der dafur vorgeschrieben Form mitteilen. "

There is no reason mentioned here, and it is an HEV document. Does that mean I'm reading something wrong, or they can increase the rent as they wish?
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  #31  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:53
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Re: Rent increase reservation on new contracts

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It has to be announced, and it has to respect the terms
It has to respect next contractual cancellation date, yes.

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it has to be mentioned in the contract
Nope

Same goes for tenant - he can request the reduction when the reference rate drops even if this possibility is not explicitly mentioned in the contract.


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Similar question here. I don't still get whether that clause makes a "huge" difference or not. Has anybody seen their rent increase only because that clause was in the contract?
Reference rate will drop soon enough, you don't need a math phd to predict what it'll happen - https://www.bwo.admin.ch/bwo/de/home...szinssatz.html

When you'll request a reduction, they'll point you to this Vorbehalt and deny your request, that's what.

Last edited by ivank; 29.07.2018 at 16:06.
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  #32  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:53
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Clause in rental contract

Hi. This is article 11 of HEVs "Allgemeine Bedingungen zum mietvertrag fur Wohnraume":

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Der Vermieter kann mietzinpassungen und anderen einseitigen Vertragsänderungen zu Lasten des Mieters auf jeden kundigungstermin vornehmen. Er muss dem Mieter die entsprechende Anpassung mindestens zehn Tage vor Beginn der Kundigungsfrist in der dafur vorgeschrieben Form mitteilen.
Can I ask what it means? Is that a normal clause, or does it allow the landlord to increase my rent as they wish?
Thanks
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  #33  
Old 29.07.2018, 15:57
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Re: Clause in rental contract

Nothing interesting, just a pointless repeation of status quo set out by law. Feed it through google translate if you want a translation.

They can always increase rent and kick you out at any termination date for any reason that they can think of. And you can always fight it if it's not a legal one.
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  #34  
Old 29.07.2018, 16:09
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Re: Clause in rental contract

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Nothing interesting, just a pointless repeation of status quo set out by law. Feed it through google translate if you want a translation.

They can always increase rent and kick you out at any termination date for any reason that they can think of. And you can always fight it if it's not a legal one.
Really, I thought nobody can kick a rent-paying, law-abiding tenant out in Switzerland :-/
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  #35  
Old 29.07.2018, 16:16
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Re: Clause in rental contract

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Really, I thought nobody can kick a rent-paying, law-abiding tenant out in Switzerland :-/
Nothing prevents them from trying.
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  #36  
Old 29.07.2018, 16:24
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Re: Rent increase reservation on new contracts

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When you'll request a reduction, they'll point you to this Vorbehalt and deny your request, that's what.
It's not indefinite, or is it? If the interest rate drops huge enough, I can still get my reduction. No?

Not having to see an increased rent is more important to me than trying to reduce it.
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  #37  
Old 29.07.2018, 16:28
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Re: Rent increase reservation on new contracts

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It's not indefinite, or it is? If the interest rate drops huge enough, I can still get my reduction. No?
Yes, they have to grant you the reduction and counter it with Vorbehalt, if reduction is big enough you'll get some of it, sure

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Not having to see an increased rent is more important to me than trying to reduce it.
Then you probably have nothing to worry about, but just in case, post what are they claiming in your Vorbehalt, the exact wording
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  #38  
Old 29.07.2018, 16:39
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Re: Rent increase reservation on new contracts

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but just in case, post what are they claiming in your Vorbehalt, the exact wording
Vorbehalte :

- aufgelaufene Reserve aus Berechnungsstand bis Vertragsabschluss 10%
- weitere: aus Kostenfaktoren


Mietzanderungen vergleiche "Allgemeine Bedingungen fur Wohnraume" (Ziff. 11)
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  #39  
Old 29.07.2018, 17:11
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Re: Rent increase reservation on new contracts

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aufgelaufene Reserve aus Berechnungsstand bis Vertragsabschluss 10%
This seems quite strange, because reference rate and inflation has been going down past decade or so, all the adjustments were largely in renters' favor.

I'd ask for details of their calculations, or just strike out and write "nicht anerkannt"

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weitere: aus Kostenfaktoren
Ignorable, they'd need to cough up proofs of these "costs" if they want to claim them. Also, they need to state an exact figure or percentage of rent, or it's void by law.
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  #40  
Old 29.07.2018, 17:11
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Re: Berechnungsgrundlagen and Vorbehalte

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They can increase, "if the interest rate is increased" up to 10%. No?
And it applies to reduction as well, no?
My main concern is that does this clause gives them the right to increase rent as they see fit?

Another question: What if the box for "10%" was empty? Does it mean they can increase unboundedly?

And what about "decreasing the rent"? Because it seems interest rates are being decreases right now, no?



10% is maximum interest rate as laid out in the law (currently)


Interest rates are already negative, really can't see them going any lower so you are already at the base level.


The Swiss can't touch interest rates until the US moves, significantly, the Europeans and possibly the UK as if they increase interest rates, everybody will want to buy Swiss Franks and this will result in even more over valuation, something they are desperate to avoid and can only avoid by making the interest on the Swiss frank unattractive as possible.
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