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Old 15.10.2016, 05:26
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

Thank you. You hit the nail on the head. Getting back control of my life. The KESB took that away. They came yesterday and it was good. They gave me a list of what we could do. Explained it it all and agreed what I needed to do and what I needed help with. Its just a one page document but its clear and I can translate it anyway. Firstly they with help with the pension. Next the tax. Thats the big one. They will help me work out how to pay what I owe and do a proper budget for me. I had prepared one and had worked out how much I can afford plus how much I owed. Also if I had a cheaper apartment what the situation would be. All of my documents are organised in plastic folders and a4 binders (which incidentally keep breaking, dont buy from OTTOs) I have 3 shelves of a4 binders. I got the list from betriebungsamt and she will help me write letters to clear it. Almost all is paid just 3 bills that are in dispute. She was reluctant to help with the medical bills. The old ones that are already paid and possibly not claimed. That is a big job. I have a spreadsheet with the outstanding bills and when I summed it, it wasnt as bad as I thought. They come back on Monday.
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  #62  
Old 15.10.2016, 08:18
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

Glad to hear things are better for you! For us not in the know though, can you explain what is KESB?
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Old 15.10.2016, 08:41
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

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Glad to hear things are better for you! For us not in the know though, can you explain what is KESB?
As doropfiz has already explained in one of the many great post in this thread:

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It seems to me that the KESB is more often in the media about children, the first inital being for "Kind" (= child, in German), so that the second initial stands for "Erwachsene" (= adult, in German) is overlooked. The S stands for "Schutz" (= protection) and the B for "Behörde" (= government department).

As it is, Nettles writes that he/she was in a coma. If there were no family members around who were automatically deemed to be in charge, then the ill person's affairs are turned over to the KESB as a matter of course.

The duties of KESB are to act in the person’s best interests, and to fulfil their legal responsibilities in their stead. Of course, sometimes this is done better, and sometimes less so.

The tricky part comes after the KESB is no longer deemed to be responsible, for example after a certain degree of health has been re-gained. Nettles, for example, is at least well enough to post on a forum. Then all the papers (or if one’s luck is poor only a part of them), fully sorted and up-to-date (or if one’s luck is poor in a total mess, in paper bags) are then returned to the person, who is considered no longer in need of any further assistance. I’ve seen kilogrammes of unsorted paper being turned over to a person who was totally incapable of sorting them, while he was told that since he was now no longer desperately ill he was defined as being no longer in need of help, and no longer eligible for help, and therefore on his own.
The KESB system was introduced 2008. Legal background is the Swiss Civil Code. The Adult Prodection part it is outlined starting from Art. 360
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a360 (In English)

The KESB is run by each canton indivdually.

Before 2008 there was no unified legal framework and each commune handled the cases by themselves. Sometimes it was the pastor wife, sometimes a more or less "good" soul with various intentions. Some of this people work now as case manager for the KESB.

In my opinion before KESB it was worse. The quality of service heavily depended on the commune. Not much of support from anyone when it was the pastors wife which did the f' up. But now, the demon has a well known name and it is the same for all.
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Old 17.10.2016, 09:47
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

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As doropfiz has already explained in one of the many great post in this thread:



The KESB system was introduced 2008. Legal background is the Swiss Civil Code. The Adult Prodection part it is outlined starting from Art. 360
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a360 (In English)

The KESB is run by each canton indivdually.

Before 2008 there was no unified legal framework and each commune handled the cases by themselves. Sometimes it was the pastor wife, sometimes a more or less "good" soul with various intentions. Some of this people work now as case manager for the KESB.

In my opinion before KESB it was worse. The quality of service heavily depended on the commune. Not much of support from anyone when it was the pastors wife which did the f' up. But now, the demon has a well known name and it is the same for all.
I will give another small example of what the KESB do to help. I just got a bill for over 2000 from my psychiatrist. According to KESB this is paid and according to my bank account it has been paid. Where on earth did the money get paid to. These are the questions I have. All these payments and no idea what for. I am still getting the bills for things that were supposed to have been paid.
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Old 17.10.2016, 12:37
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

Yes, Nettles, this was exactly the kind of "loose end" problem that faced I mentioned earlier in the thread (the one who had bagfuls of unsorted paper). Soooo frustrating!

As I see it, the way to work out what happened is to collect all the statements from each party involved in each transaction., and match up the transactions. In the one you describe, these are the psychiatrist, the KESB, the bank and the medical insurance. The KESB may or may not give you statements of what they have done, but all the other three must do so.

Write to the psychiatrist (and the same to every other provider of medical services) and ask them all for detailed bills, and for a list of any amounts that, according to their bookkeeping, you owe them.

This link http://www.bag.admin.ch/faq/index.ht..._submit=Suchen
explains, in English, that some medical bills are sent by the doctor to the patient, the patient pays and thereafter claims the money back from the medical insurance. Other bills, however, are sent by the doctor directly to the medical insurance company, which pays the doctor in full, but then may claim back, from the patient, any part of the bill which the insurance company was not liable have to pay.

The latter system is usual for hospital bills. A patient always has to pay at least Fr. 15 per day for a hospital stay, and the medical insurance company typically sends the patient a bill for this some time after the hospital's bill has been paid.

Therefore, it is worth asking the doctor/hospital/therapist whether, for the amounts billed to you, they used "tiers garant" or "tiers payant".
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Old 17.10.2016, 12:40
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

@Nettles,

I had another idea of something you could do, to regain the information about the darf phase. If you have a diary, or can reconstruct things from old letters, mails, or phonecalls, you might be able to figure out the FINANCES through the DATES.

E.g. from a diary note of a doctor's appointment on, let's just say, Wednesday 15th January. Through this you can know that, at the earliest end of January a bill might have been issued, perhaps a month or two later, usually with 30 days in which to pay. With that info, you can augment your spreadsheet, to help trace any missing bills or payments.

It is reasonably easy to figure out what you have to pay when you KNOW that the amounts are outstanding. At this stage, however, you also need to be alert to ask your service-providers whether there are any other amounts about which you do NOT yet have the information.

Keep at it! I admire you for wanting to figure it out, and get things properly organised.
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Old 17.10.2016, 13:25
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

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I will give another small example of what the KESB do to help. I just got a bill for over 2000 from my psychiatrist. According to KESB this is paid and according to my bank account it has been paid. Where on earth did the money get paid to. These are the questions I have. All these payments and no idea what for. I am still getting the bills for things that were supposed to have been paid.
Your bank can tell you the destination bank and account number. Do that for multiple transfers you keep getting billed for, if misappropriation or fraud is involved you're likely to get matching account numbers rather sooner than later.

Perhaps you also want to get a copy of the payment order, try to evaluate who signed it.
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Old 19.10.2016, 21:06
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

Thank you all for your help.I made up a list this week of things I have to do with the help of Pro Infirmis. Its quite a list. They even phoned me today to see if I was ok and make an appointment in December to help sort out the new lease for the apartment. So hopefully the apartment is safe.
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Old 20.10.2016, 12:05
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

@Nettles
Wow, seriously, I admire you for tackling it all. That's hard work.
I'm very glad to hear that the person from pro infirmis phoned you - that indicates he/she takes the matter seriously, which sounds like good news.

I hope you can persevere in gathering the information from all those various sources (doctors, hospitals, medical insurer, landlord, banks, etc.). The more of those papers that trickle in, the more coherent the picture will become.

I'm not about to do that silly thing of squeaking: "Oh, but the sun is shining!" as if that in itself should mean that your problems will magically vanish away. No. Yet I do wish for you that, in between ploughing through the items on the list, alone and with the help of Pro Infirmis, you will also manage to take a few minutes, now and again, to do something that is just nice, comforting, enjoyable, sane, healthy. I send you good wishes!
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Old 20.10.2016, 17:20
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

KESB is in the news today: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/29952616

Apparently they're not ashamed of using cheap prison labor for some sensitive tasks. Just shows how irresponsible this agency really is.
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Old 20.10.2016, 18:47
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

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@Nettles
Wow, seriously, I admire you for tackling it all. That's hard work.
I'm very glad to hear that the person from pro infirmis phoned you - that indicates he/she takes the matter seriously, which sounds like good news.

I hope you can persevere in gathering the information from all those various sources (doctors, hospitals, medical insurer, landlord, banks, etc.). The more of those papers that trickle in, the more coherent the picture will become.

I'm not about to do that silly thing of squeaking: "Oh, but the sun is shining!" as if that in itself should mean that your problems will magically vanish away. No. Yet I do wish for you that, in between ploughing through the items on the list, alone and with the help of Pro Infirmis, you will also manage to take a few minutes, now and again, to do something that is just nice, comforting, enjoyable, sane, healthy. I send you good wishes!

Thank you. I will go out tonight to see my friends if they are around but if not I will just sit in the cafe and talk to other customers. This is mind boggling but PI are helping me to systematically work my way through. I spent a lot of time last year scanning and translating these documents so thats a huge amount of work done already. Everything I have is filed properly which amazed me, I never thought I was any good at filing. This took a long time to happen so I am not going to fix it all in a week. I spent all this week on it and you are right I need a break from it.
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Old 20.10.2016, 18:49
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

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KESB is in the news today: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/29952616

Apparently they're not ashamed of using cheap prison labor for some sensitive tasks. Just shows how irresponsible this agency really is.

They certainly dont want to do the job themselves. There are more articles on there as well. Will have a read later. Thank you.
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Old 01.11.2016, 12:04
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

Got a lovely letter today to appear in court for the 600 francs the KESB say that I owe them, what about the money they owe me.
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Old 11.03.2017, 01:02
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

Hi nettles
How're things going? Still have support from pro infirmis in getting your life back under your own control?
I hope you are alright.
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Old 17.04.2017, 22:21
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

Thank you so much for asking. Havent been in the Forum for a while but things are a million times better. Apartment is sorted and bills are under control. I cant say how much I appreciate the help Pro Infirimis have given me. A lovely lady comes to see me every week and has physically gone with me to places where bills were paid more than once. Outstanding tax is still a problem but she has even negotiated a payment plan for that. The tax bills go back to 2014 which is when the lovely KESB entered my life. I didnt even know I had these bills, they never told me and I have no physical bills. This lady also has other clients who are ex KESB and similar stories to mine with regard to financial affairs. The KESB need to be shut down.
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Old 18.04.2017, 16:28
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Re: Help with fighting eviction

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The KESB entered my life in 2014. I had a standing order for rent. It was paid every month. They took over my bank account and I no longer had control.
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This year after getting rid of KESB I discovered an awful lot of bills that they said were paid were in fact not paid. Betriebungsamt came after me.
OP, if what you write is reasonably factual (forgive me, this is the anonymous 'net so no way to tell) it raises considerable doubt whether the KESB representative did his/her job in a responsible way. This may mean KESB are partially responsible so you may want to check what your legal options are.

Since money is an issue getting your right may be a bit tricky. The following are obvious possibilities you may want to check:
- ask your Pro Informis contact, you're certainly not the first to ask
- www.spo.ch (Swiss medical patient's organisation); your immediate issue is with KESB but that's been largely caused by a medical issue, or misdiagnose thereof, so they may be of help
- in many cases the Bezirksgericht provides free (first) consultations, I think Zürich city does

Another option is for you to contact the KESB supervisors, you may be able to avoid using (and paying) a lawyer to get an initial assessment:
Kanton Zürich
Direktion der Justiz und des Innern
Aufsichtsbehörde KESB
Wilhelmstrasse 10
Postfach
8090 Zürich

Telefon 043 259 83 30
www.kesb-aufsicht.zh.ch
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