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  #21  
Old 29.10.2016, 20:18
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

As DB says, as long as nothing is fitted - apart from a sink which is allowed in a basement utility - then you'll be fine - enjoy.

Last edited by Odile; 29.10.2016 at 20:55.
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Old 29.10.2016, 20:19
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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The idea isn't really about cooking in the summer here - I was just remembering a Chicago solution. Those old bungalows had basements as large as the rest of the house and so people did all sorts of creative things with the space.

(Including my last Chicago house, albeit not a bungalow, which had a steel lined secret room. Rumor has it that it was built for a 'made guy' so I can only imagine what went on down there...)

What I'm really looking to do here is to expand the useable portion of this house if the regs would allow it. I have something like 80m2 of 'Nebenraum' space - which given that the house is tiny seems like such as shame not to be able to convert into something truly useable.
I believe you can use the room as al TV / Music room, of course it's not supposed to have any beds but sofa beds would be OK. The one I am thinking of is next to a sauna & separate shower room.......
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Old 29.10.2016, 20:38
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

Our apartment is one of those terrace things built into a hill. Dull as a stump, but, it has two storage rooms running the length of the flat together, one right behind the kitchen. I could never seriously cook in there, but I use the space as a pantry, and all our extra counter top appliances, and an old marble table for rolling out dough. It's excellent....so I hope you can figure out something. It does make these kitchens liveable. I have a really crappy electric cooktop, so I bought a portable induction unit. At this point, I'm happy with induction.

My husband lost his mind last year and bought a big Weber gas grill. It is fabulous and i use it all the time, and in all weather unless it's pouring down rain with lightning. It has a light on it, too.

Go to landi and buy a big black hat to wear in the rain.

We had a steamer in our first flat. It was pretty nice, although. Also easier to clean, but otherwise I don't miss it that much. My oven is decent, and good enough for baking.

The kitchen isn't beautiful (since we rent), but it works.
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Old 29.10.2016, 21:24
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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But are kitchens counted as living space wrt to usage regs? The are not when describing the house for sale...
Yes. Sleeping rooms, Living rooms, kitchen, corridors, bathrooms count as living space (and if we are talking about ausnützung, even the stairs count). Depending on the kanton you can have a pantry fo "free", but not the kitchen.

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So... would installing a second kitchen in a cellar room run afoul of Nebenraum/Wohnraum rules?
As long as you have 10% of the floor area in window area, a proper electric and ventilation system, it should be no problem - as long as you still have ausnützung to convert cellar to kitchen.
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Old 29.10.2016, 21:33
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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As long as you have 10% of the floor area in window area, a proper electric and ventilation system, it should be no problem - as long as you still have ausnützung to convert cellar to kitchen.
I know someone who about 10 years started doing major renovations to his house in Geneva & got some permissions. He has done the work on a DIY basis & has never announced to the authorities that it's finished. He extended the kitchen 1.5 meters & believes he will just have to pay a fine at the end of the day for overbuilding.
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Old 29.10.2016, 21:37
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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As long as you have 10% of the floor area in window area.
Ah, that would probably kill it.

The cellar is fully underground, the windows are only window wells.

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  #27  
Old 29.10.2016, 22:00
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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As long as you have 10% of the floor area in window area, a proper electric and ventilation system, it should be no problem - as long as you still have ausnützung to convert cellar to kitchen.
So how does Botta and his ilk get away with their windowless designs?

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  #28  
Old 30.10.2016, 01:57
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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The idea isn't really about cooking in the summer here - I was just remembering a Chicago solution. Those old bungalows had basements as large as the rest of the house and so people did all sorts of creative things with the space.

(Including my last Chicago house, albeit not a bungalow, which had a steel lined secret room. Rumor has it that it was built for a 'made guy' so I can only imagine what went on down there...)

What I'm really looking to do here is to expand the useable portion of this house if the regs would allow it. I have something like 80m2 of 'Nebenraum' space - which given that the house is tiny seems like such as shame not to be able to convert into something truly useable.
We have a raised bungalow and our lower level is not really a basement as it is ground level with proper windows and underfloor heating. We could put in a studio with a kitchen and bathroom if we wanted to. Bungalows are rare here, but many we saw had a basement which was not one suited to anything more than storage.
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Old 30.10.2016, 10:36
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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The cellar is fully underground, the windows are only window wells.
Window wells? Damn, I really suck with the English construction terms... is it something like this?



You might get around the window problem as it's a kitchen, but it would take a nice conversation with the Bauamt. Don't give up on that account. The biggest problem is really the Ausnützung - if you have it, you don't need to give up on the project that quickly .

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So how does Botta and his ilk get away with their windowless designs?
Usually Botta builds public buildings - museums and such - which have slight different rules. Also, he makes roof windows of ridiculous dimensions for zenith light. I found the Museum of Modern Art in San Francisco by chance (I was just doing time around my hotel waiting for the convention to start). It was the first Mario Botta building I visited. It was an amazing experience, and that zenith light on the core of the building - after you pass through the darkness of the shell - was absolutely breath taking. Do not discard his buildings that quickly just coz they look like a big block of bricks Go inside if you can!

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He extended the kitchen 1.5 meters & believes he will just have to pay a fine at the end of the day for overbuilding.
What one belives and what one gets in the end is quite often 2 completely different things. I've had 2 complete opposite results: some client decided to do the garden different from what we had projected and built: had to pay a HUGE fine and put it back to how we built it. Second guy converted an attic into a room - paid HUGE fine, but was able to keep it (because he still had the ausnützung for it). Doing work like that without a permit is like trying to cheat in Vegas - you might get away with it, or you might end up in the desert.
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Old 30.10.2016, 10:46
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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Window wells? Damn, I really suck with the English construction terms... is it something like this?


I am English and I didn't know what the were called in English either, I do however know what they are in French.
Actually now I come to think of it not many places in the U.K. have them so I guess it's more of a US term.
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Old 30.10.2016, 11:25
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

If I remember correctly, from my old samosa home industry, any kitchen needs a ventilator, with an outlet.
Would it be possible install one?
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  #32  
Old 30.10.2016, 11:33
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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I am English and I didn't know what the were called in English either, I do however know what they are in French.
Actually now I come to think of it not many places in the U.K. have them so I guess it's more of a US term.
I'd have called that a 'light well' rather than a window well.

They've become more common in the UK over the last couple of decades as people have been convert cellars into living space..... but the new fire regs. stipulate that you have to be able to escape from the cellar that way too so at least one bigger dug-out space and an opening window of a certain size is now required rather than a smallish hole with a grill across it. Which of course means you need a larger bit of ground surface outside that you can sacrifice and rules out sneaking a small light well into a pavement for example!
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  #33  
Old 30.10.2016, 11:41
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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If I remember correctly, from my old samosa home industry, any kitchen needs a ventilator, with an outlet.
Would it be possible install one?
Our hood fan is "umluft", does not vent outside. This is perfectly legal.

Still I cannot imagine cooking in a kitchen without a window.

I think window well in German is called a "lichtschacht" .
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  #34  
Old 30.10.2016, 11:50
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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If I remember correctly, from my old samosa home industry, any kitchen needs a ventilator, with an outlet.
Would it be possible install one?
No, not true anzmore. If zou use a coal filter, for example, there is alreadz read available technologz to make it work without anz need of an outlet. If I find the link at work tomorrow I can post it here if zou guzs are interested (I had a presentation about it from Electrolux about 3 zears ago).
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Old 30.10.2016, 11:53
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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What one belives and what one gets in the end is quite often 2 completely different things. I've had 2 complete opposite results: some client decided to do the garden different from what we had projected and built: had to pay a HUGE fine and put it back to how we built it.
What sort of differences were in the garden? Roses instead of marigolds or something else more structural?
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Old 30.10.2016, 12:00
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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No, not true anzmore. If zou use a coal filter, for example, there is alreadz read available technologz to make it work without anz need of an outlet. If I find the link at work tomorrow I can post it here if zou guzs are interested (I had a presentation about it from Electrolux about 3 zears ago).
Oh, dear, your keyboard is set-up to the wrong layout!

Tom
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Old 30.10.2016, 12:02
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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No, not true anzmore. If zou use a coal filter, for example, there is alreadz read available technologz to make it work without anz need of an outlet. If I find the link at work tomorrow I can post it here if zou guzs are interested (I had a presentation about it from Electrolux about 3 zears ago).
Zes!

Mine is recirculating with charcoal filters and such. Apparently they couldn't get permission for venting types when they were applying for permits. The bathroom exhausts, otoh all vent straight out (Not that I think that that is a bad thing).
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Old 30.10.2016, 12:03
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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No, not true anzmore. If zou use a coal filter, for example, there is alreadz read available technologz to make it work without anz need of an outlet. If I find the link at work tomorrow I can post it here if zou guzs are interested (I had a presentation about it from Electrolux about 3 zears ago).
Has the z key on your keyboard got stuck this morning?

Just joking, I'm guessing you've accidentally changed keyborad layout.
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Old 30.10.2016, 12:19
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

Yes, the pic Helm posted is indeed what we have in the basement, and what I would call a window well. Lets in light, but fully underground.

My musings were really just about whether creating a second cooking space might be possible. Everday cooking would still be done in my primary (tiny, enclosed) kitchen, but wouldn't it be wonderful to have a second kitchen-ish space - second oven, second fridge, workspace, etc. to expand into when needed?

The 'Turkey Fryer' thread brought out some serious nostalgia, I so miss the Thanksgiving dinners of old when I would cook for a crowd of twenty or more. Entertaining the way I'd like to is just not possible here in my tiny kitchen with tiny appliances in my tiny house.

(I've been spending too much time back home; my mother's kitchen seems larger than my entire house.)

The cellar currently has a laundry room (this is where the furnace is also), a wine cellar/storage room, OH's workshop, and a Bastelraum that is currently just piled full of stuff that I really should get rid of.

All rooms in the basement have one window well each, and the whole basement is heated.

The storage space is nice, especially as we have so little in the living spaces - but all it really does is allow me to hang on to stuff I don't need. I wish I could put it to better use.

Maybe I need to re-think the whole house layout... there has to be a way to eke out a few more centimeters of usable space. Or I should say, space useable for the way I'd like to live again.

Thanks for the ideas and advice, folks!
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Old 30.10.2016, 12:28
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Re: Building a kitchen in a non-living space?

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Oh, dear, your keyboard is set-up to the wrong layout!
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Has the z key on your keyboard got stuck this morning?
I was writing an email to my mom, changed the keyboard to portuguese (it's too difficult to get the accents right when using the swiss german keyboard) and forgot to change it... And didn't reread the thing because I had a little sprout emergency... Sorry about that...

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What sort of differences were in the garden? Roses instead of marigolds or something else more structural?
It was about the fence and border delimitation. Use of thujas instead of a small bush, and usage of massive fence instead of wire fence. The Gemeinde went nuts because of it... When we got the "HALP!" email from the client, we kinda laughed because sometimes the Bauamt can be a little nuts...
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