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Old 27.02.2017, 22:29
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

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they are still fused at 10A
- well, they should be...

Everyone renting a property should check this is actually the case, and some previous moron hasn't decided to stick in a bigger fuse or a nail.
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Old 27.02.2017, 22:55
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

13 A fuses/breaker are also allowed

And yes in the past some outlets had sometimes higher rated fuses.

Still, the multiple appliances on an extension cord is hogwash.

The "and it blew up in his face" part points to a floating ground. Which is certainly a mains problem not caused by your appliances.

Means anything you plug in my blow up or get damaged.

I would get an independent controller which you know is not associated with the village and your landlord.

You can find one here: http://aikb.esti.ch/Default.aspx
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Old 28.02.2017, 10:11
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

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Electrical sockets should not be anywhere near water (there is a specified safe distance, about sixty centimetres I think), so if the one for dishwasher is under the sink that's well outside current norms.
So would you say that this is less than the certified safe distance? (Plug for dishwasher was the one with black fire damage, now "finished" according to the electrician, the one directly under the sink was for the extension cord and had water damage).
small-appliances-extension-cord-fire-risk-switzerland-unnamed.jpg
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Old 28.02.2017, 10:34
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

I'm of the opinion that anything the circuit and the main fuse accept is fine. You can't expect laymen/women to test what the circuit or a particular outlet may or may not bear, this is exactly what the fuses are there for. The burnt-in plugs show that there are issues beyond the renter's control.

Personally, at this point I wouldn't worry too much about who's to blame but about my own safety - electrical shocks and fires are not fun. I also wouldn't rely on the electrician's word as he may be your landlord's best friend. Instead I'd inform both my Hausratsversicherung and the kantonale Feuerpolizei (ECA, prévention des incendies) and ask them to come inspect the situation (telling each that you informed the other so they can coordinate). They can be expected to be neutral and objective and probably won't charge you (perhaps ask beforehand). If you ask you'll probably get English speakers.

I'd make sure the current setup is available upon the inspection as I'd be more interested in learning if I have to avoid anything rather than possibly avoid paying the bill.

ETA
IMHO the electrical outlet directly below the water pipes is anything but ideal, if there's a leak the water will drip down and may cause a shortcut.
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Old 28.02.2017, 10:49
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

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So would you say that this is less than the certified safe distance? (Plug for dishwasher was the one with black fire damage, now "finished" according to the electrician, the one directly under the sink was for the extension cord and had water damage).
Attachment 122961
Although that installation is questionable, and I would never have placed the UP Dosen like that, what your picture shows isn't unusual.

The Norms deal with placement of outlets with respect to the location of the water (i.e. a tap, showerhead, bath, sink, shower) in normal use - they don't address the problems coming from burst or leaking pipes, but rather only the risk of someone being in contact with water (earth) and power while using the water in a regular manner (i.e. splashing about, or reaching to plug or unplug something while earthed through the water).

Here is an example of a Norm

The burnt outlet in your pic didn't burn because the outlet is in the wrong place, it burnt because there was a water leak - If the water supply to your dishwasher had burst, then it would have sprayed water on absolutely everything inside that space, this is why earth fault detectors are required for installations where water is present. Having said that, even as it burned there was almost no chance of you being a part of the conductive path.

The electrician should either replace that outlet, or disconnect it from it's source - just not having anything plugged into it does not make it safe (Carbon is a conductor). The leak also needs to be addressed (this is probably just a question of caulking the sink or join between the worktop and the wall).

Finally, if you have an extension plugged into the 2nd plug, how does it get out of the cabinet?
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Old 28.02.2017, 10:54
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

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So would you say that this is less than the certified safe distance? (Plug for dishwasher was the one with black fire damage, now "finished" according to the electrician, the one directly under the sink was for the extension cord and had water damage).
Attachment 122961

I'm seeing my pet architect this evening, I'll try and remember to check with him.... but pretty sure that layout's not good as the socket is only a few centimetres below several plumbing joints, and if things are going to spring a leak it'll be there!

Until they've been checked properly, I really wouldn't use either of them!
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  #27  
Old 28.02.2017, 10:59
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

Here are some pretty pictures of extension leads which were coiled and used under high load: http://electronics.stackexchange.com...extension-cord
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Old 28.02.2017, 11:31
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

It seems to be fairly common practice here to blame the foreigner who should have known better, even though what you did is perfectly normal. I would hazard a guess that your landlord wants to get out of the expense of rewiring. I am not sure of the laws regarding the wiring in a rented property, but a kitchen can be expected to be replaced after about 10 years, at least that is what I have heard.

All my small kitchen appliances are run on extensions cords and we live in a house with quite old wiring, I guess well over 30/40 years. If you have any French speaking friends maybe they can offer to help clarify things and maybe talk to your landlord.
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Old 28.02.2017, 11:32
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

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13

I would get an independent controller which you know is not associated with the village and your landlord.

You can find one here: http://aikb.esti.ch/Default.aspx
I'm such a newbie I can't figure out how to thank people but thank you! The electrician they used is on that list but so is another one my friend recommended. I will call them and also get her here to translate.
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  #30  
Old 28.02.2017, 11:50
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

After a while, you'll get a "Thanks" button on the bottom right of each post. You can also click on the scales to add (or take away!) reputation.

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Although that installation is questionable, and I would never have placed the UP Dosen like that, what your picture shows isn't unusual.
Ours is like that, and when we bought the house and had the obligatory council inspection, the electrician didn't bat an eyelid about it.

Others have mentioned getting a second opinion and talking to the authorities. I'd add that if the landlord and his electrician friend persist in blaming you, tell them to put everything in writing, and then you talk to your insurer. Probably liability insurance.
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Old 28.02.2017, 11:54
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

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I'm such a newbie I can't figure out how to thank people but thank you!
The button will show in each post's bottom right corner once you have 10 posts.
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Old 28.02.2017, 11:58
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

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It seems to be fairly common practice here to blame the foreigner who should have known better, even though what you did is perfectly normal. I would hazard a guess that your landlord wants to get out of the expense of rewiring. I am not sure of the laws regarding the wiring in a rented property, but a kitchen can be expected to be replaced after about 10 years, at least that is what I have heard.

All my small kitchen appliances are run on extensions cords and we live in a house with quite old wiring, I guess well over 30/40 years. If you have any French speaking friends maybe they can offer to help clarify things and maybe talk to your landlord.
Thanks, it's actually the electrician who started it all, not the landlord trying to get out of paying. I spoke to the daughter of the family of the landlady (who speaks English) and she agrees that we should get a second opinion.
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  #33  
Old 28.02.2017, 12:02
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

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Ours is like that, and when we bought the house and had the obligatory council inspection, the electrician didn't bat an eyelid about it.
The installation only has to pass the norms which were valid at the time of installation. There is no legal requirement to upgrade historical installations, unless you make changes to them. I'm not sure about here, but last year I saw a knob and tube installation in a house attic in Canada. The owner wanted to install an outlet for an air conditioner, and the electrician said "I can do it, but I'd have to replace absolutely everything."
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Old 28.02.2017, 12:09
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

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Thanks, it's actually the electrician who started it all, not the landlord trying to get out of paying. I spoke to the daughter of the family of the landlady (who speaks English) and she agrees that we should get a second opinion.
In fact, she just rang back and said her mother (the landlady) will pay for whatever the bill is from yesterday, and any further repairs the same man makes. Obviously if we want a different opinion than we will have to pay, but that seems fair to me.

I think it's prudent to get someone else in!
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Old 28.02.2017, 12:17
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

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It seems to be fairly common practice here to blame the foreigner who should have known better, even though what you did is perfectly normal. I would hazard a guess that your landlord wants to get out of the expense of rewiring. I am not sure of the laws regarding the wiring in a rented property, but a kitchen can be expected to be replaced after about 10 years, at least that is what I have heard.

All my small kitchen appliances are run on extensions cords and we live in a house with quite old wiring, I guess well over 30/40 years.
Goodness, 10 years?! Our kitchen is at least 25 years old and looks it. (The plug sockets are therefore not from 1968, but the house wiring is.) The newest appliance is well over 10 years old I believe...
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Old 28.02.2017, 12:43
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

Let the landlord choose any electrician he wants (he probably has discounts) and let him do all the calls - "qui commande, paye" - whoever order, pays-
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Old 28.02.2017, 12:47
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

My last landlord was the town electrician, and the house wiring was pretty dodgy. He'd done it himself. I remember for one lamp fitting, the yellow clad wire was live. The second yellow clad wire was neutral and the third yellow clad wire was earth.
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Old 28.02.2017, 15:25
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

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Goodness, 10 years?! Our kitchen is at least 25 years old and looks it. (The plug sockets are therefore not from 1968, but the house wiring is.) The newest appliance is well over 10 years old I believe...
Just what I heard, after we moved into our new place, the land lady offered to renovate the kitchen, but it was in great condition anyway and should last easily another 10 years, so we told her not to worry about it. As out rent is quite low we didn't want to give her an incentive to increase the rent either.
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Old 01.03.2017, 11:58
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

Our experience with a relatively new (2008) kitchen - the oven and fridge are on a separate higher rated circuit. We decided against an in built microwave, which would have been fine on this circuit and have our microwave plugged in a socket which means that we trip the circuit breaker when forgetting not to multitask -boiling a kettle, toast and microwave for the warm milk can be too much. Your house system should be fused to protect against overloads and it sound as if the landlord is just trying to get you to pay for something he should take care of. An extension cable in itself is usually not a problem, it is just the number of appliances on a one time.
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Old 01.03.2017, 12:22
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Re: Small appliances on extension cord: fire risk in Switzerland?

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Let the landlord choose any electrician he wants (he probably has discounts) and let him do all the calls - "qui commande, paye" - whoever order, pays-
There are two kind of electrician licenses and task : Installation and inspection.
An electrician company is not allowed to do the very first inspection of its own work, whereas an inspector is not allowed to fix things during inspection.
An inspection of the installation is around CHF 350. By law it must be done every 20 years for residential buildings.
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