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Old 07.04.2017, 00:02
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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There is no special leaving date stipulated in our contract, the contract expired so he is now on month-to-month.
An expired limited-duration contract automatically turns into an unlimited contract if you didn't take further steps and kept accepting rent like nothing happened - Art 266 OR.

And it's not month-to-month:

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We contacted HEV they said that 3 months is fair.
That's the legal minimum and default. And without a contractual clause that overrides it, you can cancel not on any day or even any month, but only on at a few "usual" local dates - in most places it's just 2-3 dates per year. See https://www.homegate.ch/mieten/ratge...digungstermine
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Old 07.04.2017, 08:26
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

Hmmm, ok I had to look at the contract, my recollection was wrong, my apologies to.all.for not looking at the exact wording of the contract sooner.

We did stipulate dates:

kündigen dreimonatlich-zum voraus aus ende März, Juni oder September.

Der Verträg is frühestens Kundbar ab: (a date is entered here which ended over 5 years ago).

So in my translation this means:
Termination dates are at the end of March, June or September. Termination must be given with three months notice ahead of deadlines.

Earliest cancellation date: the dealing entered passed over 5 years ago.

I hope that this is interpreted that either side must give notice three months ahead of March, June or September. I have now missed the June cutoff. If I give notice now I can expect him to leave at the end of September. I will have given him 5 months notice. We have been good landlords, they have not kept strictly to the contract. If I send a copy of the termination to both him and his wife registered Using the correct official cantonal issued form, stating that we and/or my daughter wish to return to live in the house, with the letter reaching them by the end of April then I think it reasonable to expect them to leave by the end of September.
Am I right?

Last edited by Hoppy; 07.04.2017 at 08:40. Reason: Spelling
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Old 07.04.2017, 09:23
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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So I'm guessing it will take 6 months?
No idea. Because just like an extension's duration (if any) it can't predicted, you probably best move ahead within the limits of the contract.
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There is no special leaving date stipulated in our contract, the contract expired so he is now on month-to-month.
Nope, not month-to-month, see the posts above including the cancel dates.
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he says he is on holiday and cannot confirm until after the Easter holidays. He has refused to leave a key with anyone else for the appointed time.
See aSwiss above for how you should handle that.

By default a registered letter sent from within Switzerland will be returned to the sender one week after an unsuccessful delivery attempt if it wasn't picked up by then and if the sender provides his address, upon which the letter is considered successfully delivered; not sure if international registered mail is returned as well. However, I seem to remember that in the case where the sender knows in advance that the recipient is unable to accept delivery or go and pick it up (e.g. during holidays), such a letter is considered unsent; don't hang me up on that but I think I read something to that extent.

So in the sense of "better safe than sorry" you probably want to make sure the registered letter doesn't arrive until after his holidays. Since the earliest cancel date is September 30 there's ample time.
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..send a copy of the termination to both him and his wife..
Yes, one letter to each.
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Old 07.04.2017, 17:10
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

Not so nice for "the nearly retired", no wonder they don't answer
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Old 07.04.2017, 17:13
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

31 July is no problem. Normally there is a 3 month notice ...end of month.
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Old 07.04.2017, 17:18
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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I'm not surprised though that you picked one of only 5 cantons that didn't have people working on August 1st when you arrived
2/5, actually (ZH initially, and later TI).

Tom
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Old 07.04.2017, 17:21
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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31 July is no problem. Normally there is a 3 month notice ...end of month.
Not in his contract. It only allows end of June, September, March.

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I hope that this is interpreted that either side must give notice three months ahead of March, June or September. I have now missed the June cutoff. If I give notice now I can expect him to leave at the end of September. I will have given him 5 months notice. We have been good landlords, they have not kept strictly to the contract. If I send a copy of the termination to both him and his wife registered Using the correct official cantonal issued form, stating that we and/or my daughter wish to return to live in the house, with the letter reaching them by the end of April then I think it reasonable to expect them to leave by the end of September.
Am I right?
Yes, that all sounds right.

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By default a registered letter sent from within Switzerland will be returned to the sender one week after an unsuccessful delivery attempt if it wasn't picked up by then and if the sender provides his address, upon which the letter is considered successfully delivered; not sure if international registered mail is returned as well. However, I seem to remember that in the case where the sender knows in advance that the recipient is unable to accept delivery or go and pick it up (e.g. during holidays), such a letter is considered unsent; don't hang me up on that but I think I read something to that extent.
If he could have picked the letter before the deadline of notice period, I think it normally counts as being a timely notification.
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  #28  
Old 07.04.2017, 19:08
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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Not so nice for "the nearly retired", no wonder they don't answer
I know, but they have had the house for about $1000 below for a long time, at times we were out of pocket, we were very good landlords- otherwise they would have left. Now we need the house back
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  #29  
Old 07.04.2017, 20:07
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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I know, but they have had the house for about $1000 below for a long time, at times we were out of pocket, we were very good landlords- otherwise they would have left. Now we need the house back
As you have accepted that situation for 'a long time' it almost certainly won't count now as a valid reason to give them notice.

Needing the house back so that your daughter can live in it does count, but they can and almost certainly will appeal; citing inability to find the equivalent for a similar price, etc. (as you mentioned earlier) then it may drag on for a year or more if you're unlucky.
My son's in-laws gave notice to problem tenants in one of their Geneva properties who had been withholding permited rent rises, and failing to pay utility charges for over three years, they finally went to court to get the tenants out as my son and their daughter wanted to move in. In total it took just over twelve months.
During which time the owners received no rental income at all as the tenants just stopped paying everything. I believe it was that which eventually counted the most against them.
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Old 07.04.2017, 20:50
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

Anjela, that sounds awful.

Hopefully, our tenants will want to protect their reputation. I thought that if a tenant is proven to be at fault this is somehow registered by the Gemeinde and could come up in future landlord background checks?
The energy and phone services are all in their names, not ours. We pay insurance, HOA, mortgages etc.

I suppose the sooner we start the better.

Last edited by Hoppy; 07.04.2017 at 21:28. Reason: Addition
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Old 07.04.2017, 23:15
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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As you have accepted that situation for 'a long time' it almost certainly won't count now as a valid reason to give them notice.
If that's the rent per contract, there's nothing that can be disputed about it. Raising it retrospectively isn't possible.

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Needing the house back so that your daughter can live in it does count, but they can and almost certainly will appeal; citing inability to find the equivalent for a similar price, etc. (as you mentioned earlier)
It's not really your concern where they'll live. It's perfectly fine for your tenant to become homeless if he can't afford anything else, you don't have to become a charity.

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My son's in-laws gave notice to problem tenants in one of their Geneva properties who had been withholding permited rent rises, and failing to pay utility charges for over three years, they finally went to court to get the tenants out as my son and their daughter wanted to move in. In total it took just over twelve months.
During which time the owners received no rental income at all as the tenants just stopped paying everything. I believe it was that which eventually counted the most against them.
Non-payment is usually the easiest reason to get a tenant evicted. Even if there's some other dispute going on, as soon as he just stops paying and situation isn't too complicated, you can go a court to order eviction regardless of the other dispute: http://relevancy.bger.ch/php/clir/ht...141-III-262:de

There are some strict formalities and deadlines to follow, but if you do everything right (best through a lawyer specializing in this) I think it shouldn't take more than 3-6 months since first non-payment until the police kicks him out.

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I thought that if a tenant is proven to be at fault this is somehow registered by the Gemeinde and could come up in future landlord background checks?
The only thing they register are claims of unpaid debts
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Old 07.04.2017, 23:28
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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If that's the rent per contract, there's nothing that can be disputed about it. Raising it retrospectively isn't possible.


It's not really your concern where they'll live. It's perfectly fine for your tenant to become homeless if he can't afford anything else, you don't have to become a charity.


Non-payment is usually the easiest reason to get a tenant evicted. Even if there's some other dispute going on, as soon as he just stops paying and situation isn't too complicated, you can go a court to order eviction regardless of the other dispute: http://relevancy.bger.ch/php/clir/ht...141-III-262:de

There are some strict formalities and deadlines to follow, but if you do everything right (best through a lawyer specializing in this) I think it shouldn't take more than 3-6 months since first non-payment until the police kicks him out.........
You'd think that, wouldn't you? But in reality getting your property back because of non-payment of rent is not as straight forward as it should be.
And the possibility of a problem tenant becoming homeless is often used by a tenants' lawyers as an argument in court against eviction.

On paper things might be black and white, in reality they're not.

Oh, and the rent rises in this particular case were the percentages allowed under the tenancy agreement.

Last edited by Anjela; 07.04.2017 at 23:31. Reason: Rent
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  #33  
Old 07.04.2017, 23:41
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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And the possibility of a problem tenant becoming homeless is often used by a tenants' lawyers as an argument in court against eviction.
I don't think there's law that says that you can't kick him out onto the street. At the other side of the scale here are your interests as a landlord - that you get paid rent, this is one of the few things where rent laws are on the side of the landlord, and not tenant. The exact amount might be open to disputes, especially if you wanted to raise it, but not paying at all is an express way to the street. He doesn't even have a right to postpone cancellation in this case - there's even explicit law on this, Art. 272a OR: "Die Erstreckung ist ausgeschlossen bei Kündigungen: wegen Zahlungsrückstand des Mieters".

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Oh, and the rent rises in this particular case were the percentages allowed under the tenancy agreement.
Sounds like you had a more complex case than a simple non payment, hence the delay. Rent rises are usually complicated and hard to justify in our current times of negative inflation and sinking interest rates. Or maybe you missed some deadlines or formalities in this highly formalized process, causing more delay.

Last edited by ivank; 08.04.2017 at 00:35.
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Old 08.04.2017, 08:51
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

But you or your daughter will have to REALLY occupy the house after that because in the case where you use the excuse of family needing that house you get an accelerated eviction but if your tenant can prove that this wasn't the case after all you are in trouble.
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  #35  
Old 08.04.2017, 19:38
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

With regards to rent, we actually lowered it, not because we had to, simply because they asked. we have a fixed rate mortgage.

I am not looking doe new tenants. I will get some basic furniture and use the house right away. Apart from my daughter and hubby retiring, (I don't work). I also have a brother who is ill in the UK, my sister is bearing the main responsibility of watching out for him, she is boa nearly 70 herself. I need to help out, My brother cannot travel on an airplane to come.do the U.S. , I have nowhere to stay in the UK. I will definitely be using that house.

Ivank- wouldn't non payment of energy bills be regarded as a debt?

Last edited by Hoppy; 08.04.2017 at 19:42. Reason: Question addition to ivank.
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Old 08.04.2017, 20:59
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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Ivank- wouldn't non payment of energy bills be regarded as a debt?
Electricity contract usually runs in tenant's name - so he'd be in debt to the utility, not you, at least at first. Only when the utility goes after you, would you get a say. In any case cancellation for unpaid debts will ensure only that you either get paid or kick him out, not necessrily both. He can just choose to pay within deadline and then cancellation is off the table, so you should still cancel primarily due to Eigenbedarf.
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Old 28.08.2017, 18:26
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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Yep. But as ASwiss pointed out - a long time ago (me having a memory like an elephant does put events closer together it seems )

I'm not surprised though that you picked one of only 5 cantons that didn't have people working on August 1st when you arrived
As you speak German, here and here you go.
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If the contract does not explicitly say that it is cancelable to the end of any month than the usual local moving dates apply by law. Art. 266c Code of Obligations https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...dex.html#a266c

Also read about all formalities which must be met to cancel a contract or it will be null and void.

It is likely that the rent may be extended a full 12 month. This can be reduced when you intend to live there for your own.

For the problem with the visit: Read Art. 257h code of obligations. https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...dex.html#a257h

Send a registered letter where you propose three dates in August. He can pick one. Done.
I would like to thank you all for being so helpful.

I did eventually get to visit the house. It was a surprise to find that the tenant had built on to the outside of the house and make structural changes to the windows etc. without informing me!

This doesn't matter as I wish to return to live in the house to help look after my ailing brother and to allow my daughter an affordable place to live; she cannot afford to live in the SF Bay Area on her current salary and is looking for a job in CH.

I am now trying to write the form ( Amtliches Formular zur Mitteiling von Kündigung) but do not understand what this means:

Kündigung des Mietvertrages vom ________ per________.

By 'vom' do I give the date when the contract started ?
By 'per' does that mean the date when I intend for them to leave?

For instance, if I serve them notice on August 31 for them to leave by December 1st but the contract started on 01/10/2007 and is fruhestans Kundbar ( earliest cancellation) auf 30/9/2009, what date do I give fur the vom and per above.

Last edited by Hoppy; 28.08.2017 at 18:28. Reason: Translation
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Old 28.08.2017, 18:59
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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I am now trying to write the form ( Amtliches Formular zur Mitteiling von Kündigung) but do not understand what this means:

Kündigung des Mietvertrages vom ________ per________.

By 'vom' do I give the date when the contract started ?
By 'per' does that mean the date when I intend for them to leave?

For instance, if I serve them notice on August 31 for them to leave by December 1st but the contract started on 01/10/2007 and is fruhestans Kundbar ( earliest cancellation) auf 30/9/2009, what date do I give fur the vom and per above.
Correct. Vom is the contracts starting date: 01.10.2007 (you should . and not / ) the per is the cancellation date which should be the end of a month.

But according your previous statement:
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Hmmm, ok I had to look at the contract, my recollection was wrong, my apologies to.all.for not looking at the exact wording of the contract sooner.

We did stipulate dates:

kündigen dreimonatlich-zum voraus aus ende März, Juni oder September.
Your next possible cancellation date is March 31st earliest. Sorry, but that is the contract you signed and must upheld. Otherwise we can start printing them on snow.
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Old 28.08.2017, 19:29
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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Correct. Vom is the contracts starting date: 01.10.2007 (you should . and not / ) the per is the cancellation date which should be the end of a month.

But according your previous statement:


Your next possible cancellation date is March 31st earliest. Sorry, but that is the contract you signed and must upheld. Otherwise we can start printing them on snow.


OMG - who are you? You are simply the BEST!
I have been sweating over getting this since returning from CH and UK on Friday, while having a full blown ding dong with my daughter that we can no longer afford to support her and husband's stress at work!

Gee, this forum is so incredibly helpful!

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
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Old 28.08.2017, 19:33
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Re: Rental agreement ending Monday July 31?

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OMG - who are you? You are simply the BEST!
I have been sweating over getting this since returning from CH and UK on Friday, while having a full blown ding dong with my daughter that we can no longer afford to support her and husband's stress at work!

Gee, this forum is so incredibly helpful!

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
LOL, you almost seem happy that you cannot get the house for the next 7 months.
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