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Old 24.04.2017, 09:36
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

The only odd things are the 6 months notice and the charge to review the documents

Otherwise
- We have minimum 12 months let
- Move out dates are limited to the 2, same as you. Quite normal in Zurich canton
- If we had signed and then backed out, there would have been a charge

Walk away if you don't like it: others will take these terms instead
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  #22  
Old 24.04.2017, 09:45
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

Toto I think we're not in KansasBasel anymore.

In the city of Zurich, unlikey Basel, two moving dates per year are pretty normal and standard.
https://www.homegate.ch/mieten/ratge...digungstermine

Good look with finding something with 11 dates per year. It exists, but you are either lucky or you have to compromise on other parts.

About the CHF 300 charge: If that is the first time you can actually see the whole contract with all terms and conditions than it may be void. Be be prepared to fight it in the court may be up to the federal level (which would be a first, and thus highly interesting for all others) and still lose in the end.
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  #23  
Old 24.04.2017, 09:55
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

It's not all that hard to find a place where the moving dates are 4 or even 11 times per year in Zurich. My contracts were always that way.

Don't worry too much about it. Go back to the landlord politely, explain your concerns, and ask for the lease to be amended accordingly. If he refuses and you decide that's a showstopper, decline the contract. If they attempt to charge you the 300 CHF, decline to pay using the rationale indicated above.
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  #24  
Old 24.04.2017, 10:36
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

In my experience the two moving dates is a fairly standard thing in Zürich, which can be overcome by finding someone ready to move in if you want to leave in between.
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Old 24.04.2017, 11:29
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

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Of course the OP will likely lose the apartment if they do as suggested as those terms won't be acceptable to the agency/landlord. They'll look at "12 (or 11) days per year for termination and no minimum let" and say forget it. This isn't the way it's done here and I suspect there are plenty of other people who will take the contract as is. They'll just move on to the next acceptable applicant.
my understanding was that the OP wouldn't want to accept an apartment with such heinous terms, so no loss there
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  #26  
Old 24.04.2017, 14:05
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

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If you are a member of the Mieterverband it is maybe worth asking them to peruse the contract. I get their magazine - there are often cases of landlords who put terms on contracts which are not legal or not enforceable.
Their opinion is that 300 CHF fee is bullshit based on that Thurgau court verdict

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Sadly, Zurich accommodation is very much a "sellers" market
A few years ago maybe, but less so now - in the last couple of years number of empty apartments has increased a lot
https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/prd/de/...szaehlung.html

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Many applications have a fee of chf 50 for backing out after the lease is prepared and really just barely covers admin fees and time.
What the hell do you manage to spend those 50 CHF on? Make-up before going to the post to drop off the letter? Changing a name on a template document, printing it off and sending even by A Post barely costs more than a couple of franks to you. Your own time isn't chargeable, it's not really a damage that you wasted some, just normal course of business
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  #27  
Old 25.04.2017, 07:33
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

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Their opinion is that 300 CHF fee is bullshit based on that Thurgau court verdict


A few years ago maybe, but less so now - in the last couple of years number of empty apartments has increased a lot
https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/prd/de/...szaehlung.html


What the hell do you manage to spend those 50 CHF on? Make-up before going to the post to drop off the letter? Changing a name on a template document, printing it off and sending even by A Post barely costs more than a couple of franks to you. Your own time isn't chargeable, it's not really a damage that you wasted some, just normal course of business
For your information, an official HEV lease is not free of charge, and two originals need to be prepared. If the apartment is privately owned, the owner may be using the services of a property manager. Do you think these people work for free?
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  #28  
Old 25.04.2017, 07:50
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

There's no obligation in law whatsoever to use any special paid contract templates from third parties. Rental contract can be freely formulated. If you insist on using HEV's template, then why are you buying the same text over and over and over again? Buy it once and reuse, they invented xerox over half a century ago.

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two originals need to be prepared.
Fine. Print two copies. That'll cost, like, 5rp more?
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  #29  
Old 25.04.2017, 09:14
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

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For your information, an official HEV lease is not free of charge, and two originals need to be prepared. If the apartment is privately owned, the owner may be using the services of a property manager. Do you think these people work for free?
It's not the renter's problem if you pay for something that's trivial to get at no cost (other than printing).

But even if, the HEV form costs a small single-digit amount. Demanding hundreds of CHF just to complete a form indeed seems abusive, especially considering the housing market in Zürich.

Btw there's nothing "official" (in the sense of having legal authority) about any form authored by the HEV, they're an ordinary private Enterprise. Some forms need to have been approved by the authorities in order to be valid but that's a completely different thing.
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  #30  
Old 25.04.2017, 16:58
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

My comment referred to a fee of chf 50 for not signing a lease which has been prepared for the tenant. chf 300 is excessive.


In many cases, once the tenant was informed they were accepted, an ad would be cancelled. It is also possible that other interested applicants who were turned down may have found alternative properties. If the ad needs to be rerun on sites which are not free, there is a cost to reactivate it. Then the current tenant, if the flat is not vacant, again has the hassle of viewings.


The bottom line is one should ask about the lease conditions before making an application and negotiate, if necessary, before the lease is prepared. It is just a waste of everyone's time if the conditions are not acceptable from the start.
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Old 25.04.2017, 17:15
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

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The bottom line is one should ask about the lease conditions before making an application and negotiate, if necessary, before the lease is prepared. It is just a waste of everyone's time if the conditions are not acceptable from the start.
Bottom line is that landlords should make the lease conditions transparent before application. Selling the "cat in the bag" is not o.k. Otherwise I start a business which is even profitable with just a CHF 20 fee.

But Art. 16 and Art. 254 OR will prevent this.
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  #32  
Old 25.04.2017, 17:42
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

It's certainly been a learning experience for me with the gap between my expectations and the actuality being so wide. In future, I will ask the basic questions before I leave the building.

I had an offer on another property (from one of the two supermarket Pensionkasse) and, interestingly, they sent me an Eckdaten for review before preparing a contract. The terms were fine (12 month minimum lease, 3 months notice and 11 days a year to terminate the contract).

The other Immobilien (X-Name) are now attempting to negotiate the lease terms down with a proposal of 12 month minimum lease (from 16m), 3 months notice and 3 days (from 2 days) a year to terminate). I have told them once already we are through, but they do seem to like me, for some reason!

CW
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  #33  
Old 25.04.2017, 17:51
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

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My comment referred to a fee of chf 50 for not signing a lease which has been prepared for the tenant. chf 300 is excessive.
It doesn't matter, such a clause on application form with a fixed amount chargeable regardless of who faulted has been judged void.
http://www.mietrecht.ch/documents/Do...mp_1_97_23.pdf

You can only charge actual damages and only if the applicant faulted at negotiations! You don't even need any clause on the form for this.

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The bottom line is one should ask about the lease conditions before making an application and negotiate, if necessary, before the lease is prepared. It is just a waste of everyone's time if the conditions are not acceptable from the start.
No, it's your responsibility to disclose in advance any non-standard conditions significantly deviating from a contract that the tenant may reasonably expect to receive, such as the one following the default provisions of the code of obligations.

Standard notice is 3 months at the standard local dates. If you disclose that you want 6 months notice basically only at gun point: either he signs it or you charge him 300 CHF, the fault in negotiations would lie upon you. And then it would be applicant's turn to charge you for his costs that he has put toward concluding the contract. Whereas you would get nothing as it was your fault.
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  #34  
Old 25.04.2017, 17:59
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

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a proposal of 12 month minimum lease (from 16m), 3 months notice and 3 days (from 2 days) a year to terminate).
that's actually pretty standard.
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  #35  
Old 25.04.2017, 18:07
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

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that's actually pretty standard.
And pretty limited for its purpose, however, because you can pass the apartment to a replacement tenant any time from the very first day without notice
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Old 25.04.2017, 18:53
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

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There's no obligation in law whatsoever to use any special paid contract templates from third parties. Rental contract can be freely formulated. If you insist on using HEV's template, then why are you buying the same text over and over and over again? Buy it once and reuse, they invented xerox over half a century ago.


Fine. Print two copies. That'll cost, like, 5rp more?

I'm a small residential property owner here in CH. As I worked for many years in the US investment real estate industry I decided to manage my own property and NOT use the services of a property management company or realtor/estate agent in CH. So, this means I draw up my own lease agreements.


As a property owner, I joined the Chambre Vaudoise Immobilière where for 100.- yearly fee I receive all the legal advice, information, workshops, seminars and help that I may seek. They told me how to fill out a lease agreement in CH and what to include as it is different to US leases.


What I do know is that legally, Xerox copies of blank lease agreements are not permitted, for it to be legal you need always use originals, that said...a lease contract costs 2.50.- ...x 2 = 5.- ...kinda laves you struggling to find reason and justification for the remaining 45.- !!


Furthermore, my leases have always had the standard 3 month notice period requirement, this is for any given time during the year, and as it seems is pretty much the norm in Vaud. Looks like tough shite if you live in the German regions with the 2wice yearly I guess.
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  #37  
Old 25.04.2017, 19:23
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

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What I do know is that legally, Xerox copies of blank lease agreements are not permitted, for it to be legal you need always use originals, that said...a lease contract costs 2.50.- ...x 2 = 5.- ...kinda laves you struggling to find reason and justification for the remaining 45.- !!
You've been scammed lied to, darling. There is no such legal requirement.

You can conclude a rental contract here even verbally, it's legal and binding. Whether you would be able to prove any facts about it later in case of disagreements is a different matter, hence the advice to do at least some minimal paperwork. But the form of the contract is not prescribed by the law.
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  #38  
Old 25.04.2017, 19:50
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

Well love, that may well be the case, but for 5.- I don't give a damn. My main reply was really more to do with the more common acceptance to allow release from a lease at any point during the year here, unlike what you poor people are imposed to up there...and you took the time to talk about my 2 x 2.50.- Awa' n bile your hid ya dafty!
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  #39  
Old 25.04.2017, 19:54
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

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You've been scammed lied to, darling. There is no such legal requirement.

You can conclude a rental contract here even verbally, it's legal and binding. Whether you would be able to prove any facts about it later in case of disagreements is a different matter, hence the advice to do at least some minimal paperwork. But the form of the contract is not prescribed by the law.
But in Vaud there is a general agreed (between ASLOCA and CVI) standard contract
https://www.bwo.admin.ch/bwo/de/home...etvertrag.html

Also a template contract form by CVI, HEV etc. is copyright protected and cannot just be photocopied and reused for commercial purposes.
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  #40  
Old 25.04.2017, 19:57
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Re: Heinous wording in lease application...

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Also a template contract form by CVI, HEV etc. is copyright protected and cannot just be photocopied and reused for commercial purposes.
That could be true. All the more reason to write your own template.
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