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  #21  
Old 28.04.2017, 13:52
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

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I don't know why I should answer such stupid posts.

1. I wrote approximate - it is an example for someone in NZ. No figures less than a 2'500 line Excel sheet can give the full picture.

2. I wrote taxable income - not 100% of personal income. Do you even understand how tax is calculated?
And now it's you who looks stupid. taxable income is not what you gave as an (incorrect) example. Taxable income is the income upon which tax is due. You were splitting up the income tax into its component parts.

Maybe stay away from the finance topics and stick to ones you understand.

ETA

No large spreadsheet needed. You came up with a hypothesis, easily tested using a low tax area and a high tax area. Results are nothing like your hypothesis. Takes 2 minutes and you don't give people misleading information.
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  #22  
Old 28.04.2017, 13:55
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

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I'm not disputing any of that. My comment was addressed at Medea who seemed to think that Neuchâtel is not a high tax canton.
No, I was just pointing out that my commune rate is much higher than Neuchatel city's which you had at the highest in your comparison. Overall Neuchatel canton may well be the higher tax canton.
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  #23  
Old 28.04.2017, 14:10
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

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No, I was just pointing out that my commune rate is much higher than Neuchatel city's which you had at the highest in your comparison. Overall Neuchatel canton may well be the higher tax canton.
It wasn't my comparison.

You can't just take commune rate into account though. A low tax commune in a high tax canton could still pay more tax than a high tax commune in a low tax canton.
You have to look at total taxes ( which is what eyebeebee did) to get the true picture.
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Old 28.04.2017, 18:41
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

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No, I was just pointing out that my commune rate is much higher than Neuchatel city's which you had at the highest in your comparison. Overall Neuchatel canton may well be the higher tax canton.
That might be true. You would still pay more taxes if you lived in the city of Neufchâtel.
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  #25  
Old 28.04.2017, 18:49
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

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2. I wrote taxable income - not 100% of personal income. Do you even understand how tax is calculated?
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Taxable income is the income upon which tax is due. You were splitting up the income tax into its component parts.

Maybe stay away from the finance topics and stick to ones you understand.
Dear Lord, I actually cringed while reading that. Before laughing, of course.
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  #26  
Old 28.04.2017, 19:22
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

Define cheap.

In the meantime here's one:


Attachment 124816

Last edited by ZuriRollt; 09.12.2017 at 14:23.
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  #27  
Old 28.04.2017, 19:30
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

Here's a map that has, I think, been posted on this forum before.
It is from June 2014.
http://blog.tagesanzeiger.ch/datenbl...n-rechnen-darf

The map is self-explanatory. The table is interesting in that it lists factors which are, at least statistically, deemed to influence the rental price.

Here's another, from a different source, dated February 2016.
https://moneypark.ch/news-wissen/hyp...n-der-schweiz/

Please pop the articles (in German, found by searching "Karte Mietzins Schweiz") through Google translate or similar, should you wish to read them.

In all cases, as many posters above have pointed out, you'll need to do the corresponding search for taxes.
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  #28  
Old 28.04.2017, 19:33
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

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Our commune rate is 88% of Friboug canton's rate!
Which is quite low.

Zurich is something like 120% of the cantonal rate.

Here it used to be 65%, went up to 85%, and now is at 80%.

Tom
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  #29  
Old 30.04.2017, 23:47
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

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Well, it depends if any canton thinks your "business plan" will create jobs and benefit Switzerland. With German and New Zealand nationalities moving here isn't too much of a problem, but the Swiss authorities need to be convinced your business will benefit the country and provide an adequate income for you to support yourself with.

https://www.ch.ch/en/becoming-self-employed/

https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home...efta-area.html

You say you're fine with remote locations then go on to talk about fairly major places that certainly aren't cheap. Nor would being up in the Alps or by the lakeside, these are usually premium locations and cost a fortune.

It also depends on what you call cheap. A quick search on the internet for a place down in Murten not far from here and on Lake Murten comes up with a couple of 2.5 room places (living/dining and bedroom - kitchen/bath not included in room counts here), one at 1,350 a month, the other at 1,530. Do you consider that cheap or expensive?
Hey, thanks for the info and the links! Hadn't realised that those examples are actually expensive places so that's good to know.

That rent doesn't seem too steep compared to here,
Murten does look like the kind of place I had in mind also.
How about buying an apartment? (as I've heard that foreigners can do that, they just can't buy land).
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  #30  
Old 30.04.2017, 23:59
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

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Yes- but ... you have to take everything into account and your own personal circumstances too. The Jura mountains, in Vaud, Neuchâtel, Bern and Jura - all have incredible views and countryside- and very cheap housing, be it to buy or to rent- much much lower than near Lausanne, the lakes, Neuchâtel, etc.
If you can buy a fabulous house for less than 1 mio- or an amazing master's house for about 2- then, depending on circumstances, fortune, etc- it can be great value. Commuting to Neuch from here is about 50 mins, no real rush hour traffic. To Lausanne less than 1 hour- but as long as you can organise you day to leave later and return later- to avoid horrendous frontalier traffic. From some of the villages down the valley, just 30 mins commute to Neuch- with great train service too. And with France so close for shopping and other services (dentist, vets- etc)- and fast access to Paris and onwards with TGV (3hr) and on to London in a day.

And a great feeling of being 'almost' in France, for culture, shops, restaurants, etc, Burgundy vineyards and romanesque Churches, lakes, etc. It takes us 1h15 mins to go to GVA airport- as long as we avoid rush hour.

If someone is going to work remotely and not have to commute- then it could be perfect- just depends. Swings and roundabouts...
That sounds really ideal, I'll check it out - thanks a lot for posting this!
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  #31  
Old 01.05.2017, 00:17
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

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Here's a map that has, I think, been posted on this forum before.
It is from June 2014.
http://blog.tagesanzeiger.ch/datenbl...n-rechnen-darf

The map is self-explanatory. The table is interesting in that it lists factors which are, at least statistically, deemed to influence the rental price.

Here's another, from a different source, dated February 2016.
https://moneypark.ch/news-wissen/hyp...n-der-schweiz/

Please pop the articles (in German, found by searching "Karte Mietzins Schweiz") through Google translate or similar, should you wish to read them.

In all cases, as many posters above have pointed out, you'll need to do the corresponding search for taxes.
These are really helpful, thanks. It looks like Jura and rural Bern are quite affordable, which is heartening
Don't suppose you know of a good Swiss-wide property website where you can browse for apartments to buy in these sorts of places?
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  #32  
Old 01.05.2017, 08:29
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

I wouldn't look at buying straightaway. Despite your dreams, you don't know you'd actually like it here once you actually experience it. So look at renting for a year or two which will also give you a chance to see what that particular area is like and whether there's somewhere else that appeals to you more. No point in buying straightaway and then finding you don't like the area - the housing market isn't that buoyant here and some properties can take years to sell.

Also, unless you can buy outright you may not be able to get a mortgage. And buying outright loses you some tax advantage - most mortgages are never paid off here because of that.

As for places to search for both rental and buying of property:

www.immoscout24.ch
www.immostreet.ch
www.homegate.ch
www.home.ch

For private rentals, i.e. not via an agency:

www.petitesannonces.ch
www.anibis.ch

I also suggest you get hold of a copy of "Living and Working in Switzerland" by David Hampshire. It's full of useful info for both before and after you move. You can order it from your local bookshop or via the internet. And of course work your way through the various sticky threads here in the forum which also have a lot of useful info.

Also, what Swiss language/s, if any, do you speak? That may determine where you move to. Not much good moving to a German speaking part of the country if you only speak French or Italian. If you speak none then you'll need to have someone who can translate things like rental contracts, car lease, phone contracts, insurance policies, etc, otherwise you'll have no idea what you're signing up for.
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  #33  
Old 01.05.2017, 09:01
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

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And buying outright loses you some tax advantage - most mortgages are never paid off here because of that.
Bullshit, whatever you win in taxes is always much less than the mortgage interest that you still have to pay. As long as you have the mortgage, netto, it's going to cost you. Tax advantage merely gives you a discount on the mortgage rate.

Mortgage are never paid off simply because it's currently the cheapest money around. Who wouldn't want to borrow 0.xx%, seriously? But should the rates rise to 5% as the bankers always like to tell you, you'll see people lining up to pay it off right away
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  #34  
Old 01.05.2017, 09:12
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

Bullshit ivank. We have a nice negative balance on our wealth side because of having a mortgage. Not that we could have afforded to buy outright, but if you find the right place you might be able to do the same.
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Old 01.05.2017, 09:16
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

Paying the mortgage off does not affect your taxable wealth in any way. Yes, you have a negative balance on one side due to the mortgage, but also a hoard of cash on another, and they would simply cancel each other out in the process of paying it off. It's like putting money from one pocket to another, the total doesn't change.

The mere act of buying, with mortgage or not, on the other hand, immediately reduces your taxable wealth, because property for tax purposes is very often valued much less than the price you bought it for. A hoard of cash disappeared on your balance and a much less valuable asset appeared, this is how your (taxable) wealth gets reduced.
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  #36  
Old 01.05.2017, 10:34
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

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These are really helpful, thanks. It looks like Jura and rural Bern are quite affordable, which is heartening
Don't suppose you know of a good Swiss-wide property website where you can browse for apartments to buy in these sorts of places?
Do be careful about the term Jura.

Jura is a mountain chain that spans France and Northern Switzerland, and several Cantons, but mainly

Vaud
Neuchâtel
Bern
Jura

and prices vary hugely even within each of the above.
Vaud Jura with easy commute to Lausanne will be much more expensive, than the other side of the mountains in either Vallée de Joux or even up in the mountains near St Croix.

Neuchâtel Jura just north of Neuchâtel in Val-de-Ruz, with very easy quick commute to Neuchâtel town as seen large price hikes in last 10 years- but further up or West prices are still very low (La Chaux-de-Fonds, Le Locle, Val-de-Travers), and in the Jura Canton proper, areas with quick and easy commute to Basle have also seen big price hikes recently.

So you can't just hit on the term 'Jura' - you need to know what is what and where. Which is why I'd always advise on renting for at least a year to be able to travel to all those different regions and see what is available.
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Old 05.05.2017, 01:27
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

Yeah, renting and seeing what transpires actually sounds like a very smart idea, so thanks for that!

I initially thought it would be relatively similar to my country (NZ), where once you're outside if Auckland, or not in a coastal town near any of the main centres - things are moderately-priced across the board. Then it's simply a matter of finding those towns that are cheap and lovely.

And was wondering what these hidden gems / good ideas in Switzerland would be -
but it sounds like that's too simplistic a way to think about it when it comes to Switzerland really

That being said, the idea of a tranquil mountain town with character and a train station is still super appealing! And I'm thankful for the advice I've been given and the leads on good regions too.

This all got spurred-on from finding the following article during online browsing
http://www.dicconbewes.com/2011/05/2...n-switzerland/
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  #38  
Old 05.05.2017, 08:22
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

Note that if you plan to use your New Zealand passport to enter the country, you'll need to get permission from the canton migration office to stay here first.

"Nationals of the following states do not require a visa to enter Switzerland under any circumstances: Brunei, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand and Singapore.

However, the competent Swiss authority will issue a prior authorisation of a residence permit in the following cases:

a) for a stay of more than 90 days, or
b) a stay involving gainful employment:
lasting more than eight days, or
from the first day of work in the primary or auxiliary construction sectors, the hospitality sector, industrial or private cleaning services, surveillance and security services, itinerant sales and services or erotic services.

This prior authorisation of a residence permit is issued directly to the foreign national, or to a third party (employer), by the cantonal migration authority. The Swiss diplomatic or consular mission is not involved in this procedure."

https://www.eda.admin.ch/content/dam...witzerland.pdf

So you would need to decide beforehand where you wanted to base yourself initially, unless you come as a tourist which would give you up to 90 days to have a look around/travel the country and see whether or not it's actually where you want to be.
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Old 05.05.2017, 08:55
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

Hey thanks Medea - ah I see.

Thanks for that

So then it comes to down to having a (rough) idea on which general area is most tolerant of expats/immigrants.
So then the question comes back to "which cantons are the 'surest' ones?"

Don't suppose anybody has any thoughts on that?

I have traveled around and even stayed-and-worked (on location for an employer back here) in Switzerland in the past. The places I liked the most were towns like Brig and Chur and Interlaken (as opposed to the big towns like Zurich and Geneva, though those were wonderful too).

Was thinking that could easily be a canton like Glarus or Uri perhaps.

You'd naturally think that any stagnant/low-growth cantons (if those even exist!) would be trying to attract people into it? As that's currently happening here.

There's no way of knowing without talking to somebody there who actually knows things!
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Old 05.05.2017, 09:03
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Re: Affordable smaller Swiss towns to move to?

Well, you could pick one of those 3 cities and start off there. If you rent for a year or so, that'll give you an idea of whether you want to stay here and whether that's the place you want to live in. Just because you get a permit from a particular cantonal authority doesn't mean you're stuck with living in that canton for the rest of your life. If you explore and find another place you like better you just need to apply for a new permit from that canton.
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