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Old 10.05.2017, 15:44
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House purchase: what is a "cartella ipotecaria"

Our house purchase negotiations are moving forward slowly but surely. Thanks to forum members with help with our other questions...

There's a point of terminology I'm not understanding.

Turns out the house has a couple of mortgages against it (no problem).

The seller asked if we wanted to take them over as it would save her about 50000 early repayment fee. We aren't interested as we feel the mortgage isn't enough to do the renovations we planned and our experience in the UK is that an existing mortgage severely limits your options when seeking a further mortgage.

We've communicated this to our lawyer and the seller. But our lawyer is saying there are two "cartella ipotecaria" which we could pay Frs 4400 to keep.

"Li potrete usare nel caso di futuro finanziamento bancario"

I don't quite get what that means, I guess because in England either the house has a mortgage lien against it or it's sold free and clear.

It *seems* as though the lawyer has understood our instructions that the mortgage be 'extinguished' but she's suggesting we pay to take over the 2 'cartella'.

Are 'cartella' like a special bond you can leave 'empty', ready to be used by our future mortgage provider? Are they tied to a particular mortgage provider, even if empty?
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Old 10.05.2017, 16:02
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Re: House purchase: what is a "cartella ipotecaria"

It is title to link a mortgage to the property. A.k.a. mortgage certificate Art. 989 Code of obligations. https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a989
You can leave it "empty" and as pointed out they are quite valuable.

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Are 'cartella' like a special bond you can leave 'empty', ready to be used by our future mortgage provider? Are they tied to a particular mortgage provider, even if empty?
Yes, no.
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Old 10.05.2017, 16:25
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Re: House purchase: what is a "cartella ipotecaria"

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Our house purchase negotiations are moving forward slowly but surely. Thanks to forum members with help with our other questions...

There's a point of terminology I'm not understanding.

Turns out the house has a couple of mortgages against it (no problem).

The seller asked if we wanted to take them over as it would save her about 50000 early repayment fee. We aren't interested as we feel the mortgage isn't enough to do the renovations we planned and our experience in the UK is that an existing mortgage severely limits your options when seeking a further mortgage.

We've communicated this to our lawyer and the seller. But our lawyer is saying there are two "cartella ipotecaria" which we could pay Frs 4400 to keep.

"Li potrete usare nel caso di futuro finanziamento bancario"

I don't quite get what that means, I guess because in England either the house has a mortgage lien against it or it's sold free and clear.

It *seems* as though the lawyer has understood our instructions that the mortgage be 'extinguished' but she's suggesting we pay to take over the 2 'cartella'.

Are 'cartella' like a special bond you can leave 'empty', ready to be used by our future mortgage provider? Are they tied to a particular mortgage provider, even if empty?
The mortgage papers are usually written to 'bearer' & cost a great deal of money to obtain. It's therefore normal to keep them registered & hand over the bearer document so in effect it's mortgage free as you hold the mortgage security.
They want to charge you 4400 for this, depending on the max amount amount the papers are written for it's probably a good deal. When I planned to take a 450k mortgage, the papers were written for 750k so one could easily increase the loan. You have both a 1st & 2nd mortgage papers for this property. Legal costs for a Mortgage will be in the 1-2% range.
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Old 10.05.2017, 17:06
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Re: House purchase: what is a "cartella ipotecaria"

Thank you for the info. So is the right question for the lawyer to ask the max mortgage each of those cartella can go up to?

Or can the max amount be changed?
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Old 10.05.2017, 17:42
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Re: House purchase: what is a "cartella ipotecaria"

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Thank you for the info. So is the right question for the lawyer to ask the max mortgage each of those cartella can go up to?

Or can the max amount be changed?
Yes, and no the nominal value can't be changed, that's why fatmanfilms had his made way higher than immediately needed.

As part of the handover the land registry for your real estate will need be changed, at a cost. The cartella are registered in the same register so they can be removed at the same time, but that may still bring additional fees (or not, ask). The 4.4k mentioned may contain that additional fee, if any and subject to the actual wording.
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Old 10.05.2017, 17:55
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Re: House purchase: what is a "cartella ipotecaria"

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The seller asked if we wanted to take them over as it would save her about 50000 early repayment fee. We aren't interested as we feel the mortgage isn't enough to do the renovations we planned and our experience in the UK is that an existing mortgage severely limits your options when seeking a further mortgage.
That may be a good idea, depending on the terms.

Say it's about 100k debt for another ten years at 4% interest. That means total 40k pre-tax interest payment until expiration. Interest is tax deductible so depending on your marginal tax rate you may end up paying "only" 30k after tax (25% marginal income tax rate in this example assumed).

Now, if you get paid 138k to take over the debt, the seller gains 2k immediately whereas you gain 8k over the next ten years, a classical win-win situation. The problem will be in determining the debt's actual negative value of course.
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