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Old 14.05.2017, 12:10
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Genossenschaft - how to find one?

Hi. Recently at work I talked to a Swiss guy who lives in a Genossenschaft. He said that the rent is very low, maybe a half of what you would normally pay. Because of this, the demand is much higher than supply. He said that to get in, you usually need to know somebody and that they don't advertise online, because they don't need to. Plus, there are these limitations (low income, or families with children, etc.).

What is your experience? How do I find for a modern settlement (perhaps one that is just being built)? Are there any, where low income, or having children, are not a requirement?

Apart from the obvious cost advantage, I find it interesting to see how it would be to live in a community, which groups people that share some common features, and have a more direct contact with each other (where I live now, I vaguely know two people).
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Old 14.05.2017, 12:25
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

Some do advertise, that is how I found a Genossenschaftswohnung in Neuhausen. They didn´t ask for anything specifically (one person, good income) so no limitations on income or anyting else that I am aware of.

It is not a community! It is simply a Genossenschaft that makes cheaper flats available to people, nothing else.
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Old 14.05.2017, 12:53
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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Hi. Recently at work I talked to a Swiss guy who lives in a Genossenschaft. He said that the rent is very low, maybe a half of what you would normally pay.
Unless they are charity or subsidized, the only thing you'd be saving on is landlord's profit margin and taxes, and that's more like only 30-40% of the rent. Your rent still needs to pay for mortgage and all side costs, heating, maintenance, a little bit of savings for future renovations, etc.

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How do I find for a modern settlement (perhaps one that is just being built)?
You just missed one: http://www.greencity-genossenschaften.ch/vermietung

They've been advertising flats since November or so. Surprisingly there's still a few left. I thought too they would be all snapped in a week, but no. Market is cooling down

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I find it interesting to see how it would be to live in a community, which groups people that share some common features, and have a more direct contact with each other (where I live now, I vaguely know two people).
It's not really a community and many bigger ones (e,g, ABZ) operate completely like professional landlords, so it's the same experience you'd get anywhere else in rental market, except your rent is somewhat cheaper, people around you are poorer, and your deposit is (much) higher.
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Old 14.05.2017, 17:45
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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It is not a community! It is simply a Genossenschaft that makes cheaper flats available to people, nothing else.
Got it. That's OK, too.

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Unless they are charity or subsidized, the only thing you'd be saving on is landlord's profit margin and taxes, and that's more like only 30-40% of the rent. Your rent still needs to pay for mortgage and all side costs, heating, maintenance, a little bit of savings for future renovations, etc.
40% is still good. So, for example, if a professional landlord charges 3.5% p.a., then this boils down to nebenkosten (0.5%) mortgage (1%), landlord costs (0.5%) and finally profit (1.5%). So a Genossenschaft would charge 2%.

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it's the same experience you'd get anywhere else in rental market, except your rent is somewhat cheaper, people around you are poorer, and your deposit is (much) higher.
Thanks, that's why I created this topic, to get an idea what it's like and does it also function in the way I expected.
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Old 15.05.2017, 01:44
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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Unless they are charity or subsidized, the only thing you'd be saving on is landlord's profit margin and taxes, and that's more like only 30-40% of the rent. Your rent still needs to pay for mortgage and all side costs, heating, maintenance, a little bit of savings for future renovations, etc.


You just missed one: http://www.greencity-genossenschaften.ch/vermietung

They've been advertising flats since November or so. Surprisingly there's still a few left. I thought too they would be all snapped in a week, but no. Market is cooling down
The deposit of 36k+ might indeed be a problem. At least for the 4.5 room apartments.

I'm not exactly sure if they even offer parking-spaces, this being a "2kW society" building.

And the kitchen in the 5.5 room apartment looks very small.

How are you supposed to prepare food for five people with so little space?

Also, is there really wooden floor even in the kitchen? Who designed that?

That would get wasted pretty quickly here.

The price is actually quite OK IMO (for the 5.5 room).
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Old 15.05.2017, 11:54
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

Check the regional association's member list.
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Old 15.05.2017, 12:11
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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How are you supposed to prepare food for five people with so little space?
It looks like the layout is - kitchen/living area; study/tv room; 3 bedrooms.

Either way 127m2 is not a good sized 5.5 room place - and that living space is looking like it is about 4*9m + the recess for the units.

HOWEVER
It offers sufficient space for those who need the rooms and don't have modern oversized furniture.

Mind you - this 6.5 room one appears to have (in my opinion) a horrendous layout.
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Old 15.05.2017, 12:21
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

I live in a cooperative/genossenschaft called Sunnige Hof. They are building new apartments and rowhomes in Schwamendingen. (Mattenhof/Stettbach)

I find that living in this particular coop is very nice and I have much more of a sense of community, since there are organized events and things like a coop garden to meet with each other. Of course, I also have kids so that's helped as well. I find that people are much more conscientious here than in my previous building (normal landlord, same neighborhood). Can't comment on other coops. We have a great relationship with the landlord/Sunnige Hof, they are really friendly and accommodating, as well as responsive.

We live in a 4.5 room flat/107 sqm which costs 2100/mo, totally new build/modern fittings (eg. induction stove), open floor plan. The size of the apartment dictates how many people must live in it to qualify, and there was also an income requirement. There are smaller apartments that don't have a requirement for children, most of the larger apartments are geared towards families, that's true. We know many couples/no kids that live in our coop.

We were rather persistent (in a friendly way...) in following up with the Sunnige Hof, which worked out for us. The coops are often looking for people who are a good fit, so sometimes apartments stay open for that reason.

There is a second stage in the same area that will be ready for move-in in September/October. The deadline for the first application has already passed, but maybe there are still some free apartments.

Edited to add: Yes, the deposit is higher, but we would pay a lot more per month for a similar apartment for our family. Our deposit was 14,000 CHF, vs. almost 6000 CHF for our previous, tiny apartment. While the people might not earn tons of money as salary, I have the feeling they are somewhat more responsible given the savings required for the deposit. There are a fair number of academics like us here. Again, can only speak for my coop.

Last edited by batucada; 15.05.2017 at 12:29. Reason: added more info
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Old 15.05.2017, 19:48
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

I agree, the flat layout in Green City is pretty dull. 2000 Watt Standard would not be a problem to me (as far as I know, you are not allowed to own a car).

It's always a mystery to me how people lack the ability or will to save money. 36 000 seems easy to save. If a couple saves a humble 1000 per month, they just need 3 years. When I came to Switzerland, I was saving 4000 out of 7000 each month.
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Old 15.05.2017, 20:06
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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It's always a mystery to me how people lack the ability or will to save money. 36 000 seems easy to save. If a couple saves a humble 1000 per month, they just need 3 years. When I came to Switzerland, I was saving 4000 out of 7000 each month.
You do realize that a lot of people have families and are on low salaries? Easier to save on your own.

Nothing to do with a lack of will......... Ability is quite another story and agaon not everyone earns a package
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Old 15.05.2017, 20:27
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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You do realize that a lot of people have families and are on low salaries? Easier to save on your own.

Nothing to do with a lack of will......... Ability is quite another story and agaon not everyone earns a package
I can imagine that a family with a single source of income or both parents on minimal salary might not be able to save money at all. But that's not the case for most people. Anyway, sorry for changing the subject.
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Old 15.05.2017, 20:29
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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I can imagine that a family with a single source of income or both parents on minimal salary might not be able to save money at all. But that's not the case for most people.
It is exactly the case for most people.

Tom
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Old 15.05.2017, 20:33
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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I can imagine that a family with a single source of income or both parents on minimal salary might not be able to save money at all. But that's not the case for most people. Anyway, sorry for changing the subject.
I was going to say that this is very much the case for a great many people but Tom beat me to it.

And if your salary is so good and your savings substantial, why target housing aimed at less financially blessed folk?

Last edited by RufusB; 15.05.2017 at 20:48.
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Old 15.05.2017, 20:38
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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I was going to say that this is very much the cae for a great many people but Tom beat me to it.

And if your salary is so good and your savings substantial, why target housing aimed at less financially blessed folk?
And you beat me to that!
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Old 15.05.2017, 20:40
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

Median household income for families with kids is 120k (ish). But this is a 90th-percentile individual income, so it's clear that most of these are households with two incomes (often one full and one part-time) - which in turn means a sizeable chunk of it is flowing straight back out the door, at least in the first few years, for child care.

Either way, 1k/mo savings on a household income of 120k would be 10%. Of gross. With kids. Not necessarily impossible, but nothing to sneeze at either.
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Old 15.05.2017, 21:06
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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Median household income for families with kids is 120k (ish).
Do you mean in the EF?
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Old 15.05.2017, 21:14
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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Do you mean in the EF?
No, in Switzerland. Seemed a bit high to me too but that's what the BfS website lists. I'll see if I can find the link again later once kids are in bed.

Mind you, that's gross income before any taxes, deductions for pension contributions etc. and may even include the 200/mo child allowance. (Or it may not... I can't remember off the top of my head.)

Update: here's the link
https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/de/home...l.1400554.html
And it looks like I remembered wrong, the actual figure is higher, around 160k. (again, that number is the median gross household income of couples with children, so excluding single-parent households.)
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Old 15.05.2017, 23:44
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

You say that's the case for most people, and I guess I should just take your word for it. Some sources please?

This source says the median for Zurich was 7700 CHF in 2012.

Some commenters have pointed out, that Genossenschaften are not exclusively suited for people with low income. I mean, get your story straight, you say that it's meant for people with low income, but then you say that 36'000 would be so hard to raise for them.

I'm not denying that many people have it hard, but at the same time I'm sure there are plenty who earn enough to save up 36'000.
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Old 16.05.2017, 00:47
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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You say that's the case for most people, and I guess I should just take your word for it. Some sources please?

.
You want people to disclose their personal finances on a public forum? Why the insistence that saving money is easy? Some sources please...

I'm very happy you are financially secure. Long may it continue. Please don't assume your life experience is the same as everyone else's. At best it's bloody patronising and high-handed, somehow.

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Old 16.05.2017, 02:50
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Re: Genossenschaft - how to find one?

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You say that's the case for most people, and I guess I should just take your word for it. Some sources please?

This source says the median for Zurich was 7700 CHF in 2012.
Mathnut links to stats on couples, yours is per person. Something like one full earner (80-100%) plus one doing 40-80% seems plausible to me, and that gets you sqarely in the 12k region.

What I have lots of difficulty to accept though is 10.2% tax rate on that kind of income, that's way off everything I know.
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