Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 22.05.2017, 18:23
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: zurich
Posts: 20
Groaned at 15 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
mrfish has no particular reputation at present
Moving and cleaning rip off?

We booked a local moving company and signed a contract for him to move our things to a new house and also clean the house we were leaving. The move took place end December, then the cleaning was due to take place towards end March when our rental contract ended.

The move did not go smoothly for various reasons, so shortly after the move we informed the moving company that we no longer needed their services for cleaning. The moving company responded along the lines "aber wir haben einen Vertrag". Now in May the moving company is chasing us for full payment of the cleaning costs. We have spoken to the owner of the company and his opinion is that we had a contract with him for cleaning and that we need to pay up even if we did not take the service as he did not accept the cancellation of the contract.

His contract with us says nothing about cancellation, so my view was that we cancelled the contract when we informed him that we did not need the service, giving reasonable notice so that he actually suffered no losses.

Who is right? Why? Do I need to get a lawyer involved or should I just pay up and chalk it up to experience.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at mrfish for this post:
  #2  
Old 22.05.2017, 18:33
Today only's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 7,321
Groaned at 810 Times in 549 Posts
Thanked 8,988 Times in 4,257 Posts
Today only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

As you said, you signed a contract.

A lawyer will charge you a further Chf 500.-- and still tell you you have to pay up.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Today only for this useful post:
This user groans at Today only for this post:
  #3  
Old 22.05.2017, 18:35
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 2,304
Groaned at 87 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 2,002 Times in 1,123 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

I'm almost sure he's wrong. The type of contract that you legally have here is an "Auftrag", which by law can be cancelled by either party at any time for any reason - Art 404 OR.

He's only entitled to a compensation if cancellation was done at an unreasonable time (Art 404. OR Abs 2), which is not the case here - he had 3 months heads up notice.

But consider carefully whether you have proofs that you cancelled the contract in good time.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank ivank for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 22.05.2017, 19:03
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: zurich
Posts: 20
Groaned at 15 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
mrfish has no particular reputation at present
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

I remembered that a wife of a friend is a lawyer. A 20 minute phone call later and she confirmed what ivank wrote. Thanks ivank for the links and references, I will take a look at those.


So next step is to write the removals firm a letter putting this in writing, then hopefully the firm will see sense and forget about the whole thing.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mrfish for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at mrfish for this post:
  #5  
Old 22.05.2017, 19:16
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 2,304
Groaned at 87 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 2,002 Times in 1,123 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

Just write a simple email or call him. You have nothing to gain by sending this as a hard letter with tracking, just a waste of postage money and adds unnecessary delay. The deed is done, your goal now should be to convince him about your legal interpretation of the situation and make him drop the case. But if the guy is stubborn, he'll take further steps regardless
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 22.05.2017, 19:54
Today only's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 7,321
Groaned at 810 Times in 549 Posts
Thanked 8,988 Times in 4,257 Posts
Today only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

The key to this will be "how did you inform them", by telephone or in writing.

If it was in writing, 3 months ago then you stand a chance, but if it was on the phone with no written confirmation.....good luck
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Today only for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 22.05.2017, 19:59
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 2,304
Groaned at 87 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 2,002 Times in 1,123 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

If you don't have anything in writing, there's still a small chance - you'll need to compose your email/letter very carefully to get him to inconspiculously affirm that cancellation was indeed discussed and he "rejected" it (which he had no right to, so it doesn't matter). Then his reply would probably qualify as a good enough proof. But if h knows the drill and denies everything, tough luck indeed
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22.05.2017, 20:09
Today only's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 7,321
Groaned at 810 Times in 549 Posts
Thanked 8,988 Times in 4,257 Posts
Today only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

It's really quite amazing how people think they can swim in and out of contracts as they feel, that your signature doesn't really mean anything at all.

If he did such a bad job moving, why wasn't this settled properly back then, in writing. If it was done in writing, then was it done with recommended letter or do you have a confirmation from your contractual party ?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Today only for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 22.05.2017, 20:20
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: zurich
Posts: 20
Groaned at 15 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
mrfish has no particular reputation at present
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

We have the cancellation in emails, texts and phone call records. Plus he confirmed he received it by phone tonight when I asked him to read out the emails my wife sent him as I could not access them while also talking on my mobile phone.


So he will get a short letter tomorrow spelling out the legal points in German, then if he chooses to pursue further we will see what happens.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 22.05.2017, 20:25
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 2,304
Groaned at 87 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 2,002 Times in 1,123 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

Emails and texts are good. But calls... Did you ask for his permission to record the calls? Call recording without consent is a criminal act. Up to 1 year behind bars.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ivank for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 22.05.2017, 21:52
Today only's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 7,321
Groaned at 810 Times in 549 Posts
Thanked 8,988 Times in 4,257 Posts
Today only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond reputeToday only has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

Quote:
View Post
We have the cancellation in emails, texts and phone call records. Plus he confirmed he received it by phone tonight when I asked him to read out the emails my wife sent him as I could not access them while also talking on my mobile phone.


So he will get a short letter tomorrow spelling out the legal points in German, then if he chooses to pursue further we will see what happens.
Providing the written correspondence was done after your move rather than just before you wanted the cleaning done, you should be ok, although why you expect correct answers without providing all the information is beyond me.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Today only for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 23.05.2017, 10:16
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 7,426
Groaned at 246 Times in 209 Posts
Thanked 8,944 Times in 4,685 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

Quote:
View Post
I'm almost sure he's wrong. The type of contract that you legally have here is an "Auftrag", which by law can be cancelled by either party at any time for any reason - Art 404 OR.
Typically a cleaning contract will include a handover guarantee. An Auftrag per se includes no guarantee on success so it's probably a mixed order, partially a Werkauftrag, meaning 377 and following also apply (partially).

A Werkauftrag can also be cancelled but the subscriber owes (part of) the foregone profit, in this case probably only partially due to the early cancellation. I guess this may be further reduced depending on the problems that occurred during the move.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06.06.2019, 19:36
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: zurich
Posts: 20
Groaned at 15 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
mrfish has no particular reputation at present
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

I realized this was worth an update.

After a letter which our legal friend helped to draft, the removals and cleaning company went silent.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mrfish for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 06.06.2019, 22:44
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: VD
Posts: 302
Groaned at 47 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 247 Times in 121 Posts
bugger is considered unworthybugger is considered unworthybugger is considered unworthybugger is considered unworthy
Re: Moving and cleaning rip off?

It's really quite amazing how some people just can't shut up with their unhelpful comments, even after proven wrong by others with more relevant info. Thanks ivank for the very helpful link and mrfish for the update.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank bugger for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Swiss airways rip-off noipv4 Complaints corner 34 15.06.2014 15:19
Rip Off Doctor mirfield General off-topic 23 09.11.2012 14:03
Oktoberfest rip-off PaddyG General off-topic 3 23.09.2011 17:52
Swissair rip off byby Complaints corner 114 24.02.2009 21:30


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:31.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0