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Old 23.08.2017, 00:16
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House with Electric heating

Hi everybody,

We found the perfect house and strongly considering buying it, the only thing stopping us is the electric heating. We live in Jura canton with hard winters. What are your experiences-advises about the electric heating? Electric bills? It has radiators and floor heating.
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Old 23.08.2017, 00:53
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Re: House with Electric heating

It really depends on the type of heating used, how proper it is installed and how well isolated and big/small the house is for the costs of electrical heating as a primary system.
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Old 23.08.2017, 01:19
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Re: House with Electric heating

I think I'd be most afraid of the cost. Have a place with electric heat and it's not bad as it heats water during night on lower cost electric. Another place I lived had underfloor electric in one small part and it was quite astronomical. So a lot of variations out there I'm afraid. Best would be to ask owner for monthly or yearly electric bills and you can see yourself what you're potentially getting into. Age and maintenence records would also be things I'd ask about.
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Old 23.08.2017, 09:56
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Re: House with Electric heating

You need at least 2 years electicity bills to evaluate.

There is very little maintainence to an electrical heating system (so when you compare costs, include the maintainance and upkeep of the gas/oil system...)

If the radiateurs are modern, they are very efficient usually, especiually those with a combined stone inside giving storage capacity.

Is there any othe form of heating, chimney is pretty useless for heating (looks nice) wood burning stoves are good if the are in steel or excellent if they are in stone or tile as they work as storage heaters.

Electric is very clean, no mazout/oil smells, doesn't take any place.

If there is a power cut, you get cold, ditto if you run out of oil, gas is usually constant supply (if you have gas in your area)

There are some noises about banning electric heating and forcing people to change to heat pumps or whatever, this noise has been around for a while and hasn't got too far yet.

Solar pannels aren't quite there yet for winters in Jura.

Heat exchangers and deep holes for geo thermal is an option, but maybe check in your area as the rock in Jura maybe hard which increases costs of boring a hole.
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Old 23.08.2017, 11:37
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Re: House with Electric heating

Expect electric heating to get outlawed in the quest for the "Energiestrategie 2050".

[found it here]:

https://www.endk.ch/de/energiepolitik-der-kantone/muken

This means you've got 15 years after 2020-ish (when Muken 2014 is supposed to go into law)

https://awel.zh.ch/internet/baudirek...MuKEn_2014.pdf

Also, these houses are often not very well insulated, their energy usage is thus high.

Replacing the heating in such a house inevitably leads to re-doing all the insulation, bringing it to up to modern standards.

You should get quotes on doing all that and decide if you still want to spend the asking price, if the seller doesn't want to sell at a lower price.

Some numbers I found:

https://www.erdoel.ch/images/pdf/MuKEn-Flyer_d.pdf
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Old 23.08.2017, 11:49
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Re: House with Electric heating

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Expect electric heating to get outlawed in the quest for the "Energiestrategie 2050".

[found it here]:

https://www.endk.ch/de/energiepolitik-der-kantone/muken

This means you've got 15 years after 2020-ish (when Muken 2014 is supposed to go into law)

https://awel.zh.ch/internet/baudirek...MuKEn_2014.pdf

Also, these houses are often not very well insulated, their energy usage is thus high.

Replacing the heating in such a house inevitably leads to re-doing all the insulation, bringing it to up to modern standards.

You should get quotes on doing all that and decide if you still want to spend the asking price, if the seller doesn't want to sell at a lower price.

Some numbers I found:

https://www.erdoel.ch/images/pdf/MuKEn-Flyer_d.pdf
I dont follow this line of thought and I don't think the electrical heating ban will ever come into force here.

For a start Electrical heating is quite economic. I asked about replacing my electrical heating with Gas at the local energy shop and he said I'd save "about 15%" each year max. this with having to get pipes from the road into the house and then pipework all round the house which woudl have been around 40-50k.

Modern radiators have, as well as the temperature sensor: motion detection so they turn on only when people are in the room, scheduling, remote operations as they are connectable to any home automation software plus your electricity to use them can come from Solar or any of the renewable sources.

Therefore you are being asked to replace a green, efficient, intelligent heating source with a heat pump by 2035. The heat pump, bear in mind, isnt any good unless you have good insulation. so an entire house wrapping in insulation along with heatpump install and pipework around the house ? easily into six figures. this is to save the environment of course, which is all that matters, because solar panels clearly arent seen as a green source of energy by the canton.

Bear in mind a massive proportion of heating in switzerland is electric. what exactly are they going to do in 2035, tell people to turn off their heating during winter and freeze to death ?

If you like the house, buy it. the electrical heating ban will not come into force, they are not looking at how technology will evolve.
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Old 23.08.2017, 12:08
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Re: House with Electric heating

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I dont follow this line of thought and I don't think the electrical heating ban will ever come into force here.

For a start Electrical heating is quite economic. I asked about replacing my electrical heating with Gas at the local energy shop and he said I'd save "about 15%" each year max. this with having to get pipes from the road into the house and then pipework all round the house which woudl have been around 40-50k.

Modern radiators have, as well as the temperature sensor: motion detection so they turn on only when people are in the room, scheduling, remote operations as they are connectable to any home automation software plus your electricity to use them can come from Solar or any of the renewable sources.

Therefore you are being asked to replace a green, efficient, intelligent heating source with a heat pump by 2035. The heat pump, bear in mind, isnt any good unless you have good insulation. so an entire house wrapping in insulation along with heatpump install and pipework around the house ? easily into six figures. this is to save the environment of course, which is all that matters, because solar panels clearly arent seen as a green source of energy by the canton.

Bear in mind a massive proportion of heating in switzerland is electric. what exactly are they going to do in 2035, tell people to turn off their heating during winter and freeze to death ?

If you like the house, buy it. the electrical heating ban will not come into force, they are not looking at how technology will evolve.
They are giving people 15 years to come up with something different.

Often, the houses are old and have bad insulation. It's from a time when nuclear power-plants produced cheap energy all day...

If you have such a system, it's time to think about alternatives - because they are expensive and take a very long time to amortize.

If you look at the slides in the 2nd link, you'll see that the difference in the requirements for maximum energy-usage between Muken 2008 and Muken 2014 is just 700ml of heating oil equivalent per sqm.
That's not really a huge difference, Muken 2000 specified 9l vs. 4.8l in 2008.

There is clearly the law of diminishing returns at work here (also, I'm asking myself if and how gray energy usage is taken into account here - fabrication of insulation or cement for a new building is very expensive, from an energy point of view).

Anyway, your thinking is a bit naive: when was the last time reason got the upper hand over a political agenda?
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Old 23.08.2017, 12:20
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Re: House with Electric heating

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They are giving people 15 years to come up with something different.

Often, the houses are old and have bad insulation. It's from a time when nuclear power-plants produced cheap energy all day...

If you have such a system, it's time to think about alternatives - because they are expensive and take a very long time to amortize.

If you look at the slides in the 2nd link, you'll see that the difference in the requirements for maximum energy-usage between Muken 2008 and Muken 2014 is just 700ml of heating oil equivalent per sqm.
That's not really a huge difference, Muken 2000 specified 9l vs. 4.8l in 2008.

There is clearly the law of diminishing returns at work here (also, I'm asking myself if and how gray energy usage is taken into account here - fabrication of insulation or cement for a new building is very expensive, from an energy point of view).

Anyway, your thinking is a bit naive: when was the last time reason got the upper hand over a political agenda?
I dont speak German im afraid so I can't comment on the slides, but I really do agree with your last bit - this is just political posturing over common sense.

Regarding the point "if you have such a system its time to start thinking of alternatives" when you look at what it really means its just ridiculous.

A completely new inulation layer, plus heat pump plus pipework into the house plus roadworks to get the source is going to be around 150k in switzerland.

so lets say I say "christ your right, Im slaughtering the environment with my solar panels, i must change it for a heat pump" thats 15,000 per year for 10 years, so 1200 CHF per month, from right now, for the next 10 years. Given I can hardly stay afloat with the costs of the kids currently and given that my solar generated electrical heating does not pollute, can you give me the rationale for changing ? Saying "but its green" doesnt matter - i have green energy and more and more central electricity comes from hydro and other such sources.

(note I dont me you as in aggressively you, I mean objectively, i.e. the question is to switzerland law makers).

Its an absurd policy. There is, without doubt, a way to get people off electrical and onto renewables and thats to refund 75% or more of the cost of doing so. If there was a real tangible benefit to me which would mean I could carry on affording to provide for the kids while going to a renewable energy like a heat pump I would do it. WHile the proposition is to financially ruin myself so that a political argument over what is meant by "green" is satisfied, I will pass.
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Old 23.08.2017, 14:28
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Re: House with Electric heating

Since nobody brought it up: Old systems are not just far less energy efficient than new ones - the (really) old ones which very well might still be in use today as electric heating generally does not need a lot of maintenance... had crap loads of asbesthos in them. That's not just a deadly health hazard, but insanely expensive to get rid of.

So if the heating looks like its from the 70s make sure you get a specialist to look at it before you buy.
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Old 23.08.2017, 14:48
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Re: House with Electric heating

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Since nobody brought it up: Old systems are not just far less energy efficient than new ones - the (really) old ones which very well might still be in use today as electric heating generally does not need a lot of maintenance... had crap loads of asbesthos in them. That's not just a deadly health hazard, but insanely expensive to get rid of.

So if the heating looks like its from the 70s make sure you get a specialist to look at it before you buy.

Old old electric radiateurs are usually two bits of steel thin steel plate with a small space between where electric wires run and heat up thus causing the heating effect.

Modern electric radiateurs aur usually with a prifiled aluminium frame, inside which their is a recatory cement/brick struckture where the wires run.

The brick heats and works as an accumulator, the aluminium profiles significantly increase suface ares thus making a modern radiateur VERY efficient, cost is bvetween Chf 1.0 - 1.5k per KW output as a very rough estimate, very easy to replace though !
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Old 23.08.2017, 14:51
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Re: House with Electric heating

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Modern electric radiateurs aur usually with a prifiled aluminium frame, inside which their is a recatory cement/brick struckture where the wires run.

They had those fifty years ago. Hardly modern.
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Old 23.08.2017, 15:24
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Re: House with Electric heating

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They had those fifty years ago. Hardly modern.
They weren't common 50 years ago here !

Here they were as i dsescribed, very basic generally speaking the aluminium profile may have been available, but only to the very well off, as you so well know
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Old 04.09.2017, 11:08
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Re: House with Electric heating

My electricity bill goes up to CHF1200 almost every time for 4 years now. Is electircity so expensive in Switzerland?
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Old 04.09.2017, 11:10
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Re: House with Electric heating

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My electricity bill goes up to CHF1200 almost every time for 4 years now. Is electircity so expensive in Switzerland?
No, I think it is rather cheap. It all depends on what you use for heating, hot water, lights etc etc
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Old 04.09.2017, 11:34
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Re: House with Electric heating

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My electricity bill goes up to CHF1200 almost every time for 4 years now. Is electircity so expensive in Switzerland?
The first sentence doesn't make sense! Do you mean your annual electricity bill goes up by CHF1200 every year for 4 years? In which case you need to switch some things off.

My non-heating electricity bill has been around CHF1100 for years. And CHF400 a year for electric heat pump.

To the OP I would be very wary of any kind of electric heating, other than a heat pump...
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Old 04.09.2017, 12:25
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Re: House with Electric heating

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My electricity bill goes up to CHF1200 almost every time for 4 years now. Is electircity so expensive in Switzerland?
About 30% above average for an household, and electricity is rather cheap, for example it is about 50% more expensive in Germany.
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Old 04.09.2017, 12:26
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Re: House with Electric heating

Sorry if I have not made myself clear: it is CHF1200 for every bill that I have received and paid in the past 4 years. I think each bill covers a period of about two months. My question remains: Is electricity so expensive in Switzerland?
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Old 04.09.2017, 12:42
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Re: House with Electric heating

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Sorry if I have not made myself clear: it is CHF1200 for every bill that I have received and paid in the past 4 years. I think each bill covers a period of about two months. My question remains: Is electricity so expensive in Switzerland?
No, electricity is not expensive in Switzerland.

If you pay that amount per every 2 months, I´d recommend to check where exactly the highest usage comes from as this amount is quite high (unless you have a 10 room house without insulation and a sunbed etc etc).
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Old 04.09.2017, 12:53
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Re: House with Electric heating

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Sorry if I have not made myself clear: it is CHF1200 for every bill that I have received and paid in the past 4 years. I think each bill covers a period of about two months. My question remains: Is electricity so expensive in Switzerland?
That is GIGANTIC.

7200,- a year

Last year the price was 20.6 rappen/kWh, so

7200/.206 = 34.951 kWh/Year That is enormous, and savings can be so huge that you really should look into other ways of either generating your own electricity, replace some equipment or switch to a warmth pump system / pellet burner.

The average household used last year around 4500kWh and paid around 930,- for this.

Disclaimer: Not taking into consideration if you have a day/night system.

Last edited by EdwinNL; 04.09.2017 at 13:04.
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Old 04.09.2017, 13:00
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Re: House with Electric heating

Our use of electricity is very basic perhaps with the exception of electric heating. The meter reading seems to be correct, too.
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