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  #81  
Old 01.11.2017, 15:12
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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EDIT: Think of the lengths car manufacturers go to to keep the styling details of their new models secret. Nobody wants their thunder stolen and IP knocked off before launch.
And the chap who's just been fired from Apple for leaking the iPhone X. And if you work from home, it's *your* responsibility - and liability - to ensure that extreme level of security is maintained, even if you're not a security or IT specialist. Some of the NDAs I see are clearly written by lawyers unfamiliar with the logistics of my industry - hence the practical unworkability - but once a client has paid a lawyer mega-bucks to draft the thing, they are hardly going to throw it out of the window or dismiss the advice they've paid a lot of money to "experts"*/professionals for. It's usually a case of sign it if you want the work. No signature, no work, take it or leave it.

* I've put "experts" in inverted commas because they are almost certainly experts in the law, but not always as familiar with how the industry they're working for functions.
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  #82  
Old 01.11.2017, 15:13
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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EDIT: Think of the lengths car manufacturers go to to keep the styling details of their new models secret. Nobody wants their thunder stolen and IP knocked off before launch.
Yes it's quite amusing, I was filming for Porsche in their development centre. Someone stuck some tape over my phones camera .
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  #83  
Old 01.11.2017, 15:14
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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But if, as you suggest, she'd anticipated the reaction, she'd also have been able to see that there was no point posting it with such a teaser in the first place. It would have been quite easy to ask for the information on her rights and responsibilities without making it sound so paranoid, such as not using expressions like 'break-in'. That's what puzzles me about the whole thing.
Do you think she's a native English-speaker? I don't. I challenge you to observe such nuances in a language that isn't your mother tongue. Hell, people exaggerate in their mother tongue when stressed and worried, let alone trying to hit exactly the right register in a foreign language.
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  #84  
Old 01.11.2017, 15:15
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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* I've put "experts" in inverted commas because they are almost certainly experts in the law, but not always as familiar with how the industry they're working for functions.
Buahahha. So true.

An office environment is access controlled and there is an assumed level of confidentiality (though often untrue - the things I've found unerased on whiteboards or abandoned on printers!). Work from home? Much harder to maintain to the satisfaction of the clientside lawyers.

EDIT: that gave me a thought - if OP covers the work and seals it with a tape seal, then hiring a security guard to ensure the covers are not disturbed might offset the liability to the security company, and (if something were to happen) indicate that she took all reasonable measures to protect the IP.

Last edited by Occasional_Canadian; 01.11.2017 at 15:18. Reason: another thought
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  #85  
Old 01.11.2017, 15:25
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

@eng_ch and Occasiona Canadian, you seem very kind and sweet to take this thread seriously. I did that too in a few occasions lol. But....after seeing so much on EF, I can safely assume that this is a troll.
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Old 01.11.2017, 15:27
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

Swiss Law is very clear about the right of landlord and his/her representatives, in this case workers- for essential repairs. Art. 257e of the Code.
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Old 01.11.2017, 15:31
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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@eng_ch and Occasiona Canadian, you seem very kind and sweet to take this thread seriously. I did that too in a few occasions lol. But....after seeing so much on EF, I can safely assume that this is a troll.
I know that feeling, but there's some comments that really ring true to my experience with stupidly strict nondisclosures. I've had walls of papers taken down before the cleaners came in, and at one point (one glorious, ridiculous point) I had to file a competitor contact memo every time I communicated with an old friend due to our employers, despite neither of us having possession of any relevant information. In that case, even the head of legal thought it was stupid, but I still had to do it.

If it's a troll, it's well done and I doff my (metaphorical) hat. If not, I feel for her because that's a terrible position to be in.

Last edited by Occasional_Canadian; 01.11.2017 at 15:33. Reason: spelling
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  #88  
Old 01.11.2017, 15:48
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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@eng_ch and Occasiona Canadian, you seem very kind and sweet to take this thread seriously. I did that too in a few occasions lol. But....after seeing so much on EF, I can safely assume that this is a troll.
I think I can safely assume I've seen most things on EF in the 12 years I've been a member. Like Occasional_Canadian I've been in similar situations and the OP's situation is credible. Those of you who've not been in such circumstances can consider yourselves fortunate.

On balance, if it's a troll, giving the benefit of the doubt does no harm to the OP. If it's genuine, the responses assuming she's a troll will just make a worrisome situation worse, kicking someone when they're already down and drive them away. Not to mention add to EF's (sadly not unfounded) reputation for being a rather unkind lion's den that people genuinely looking for information enter at their own risk. I know which side I'd prefer to err on.
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  #89  
Old 01.11.2017, 15:58
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

What I seem to get from this is that the OP doesn't appear to want to let the workmen in EVER. And that's simply not on. They're going to have to allow entrance at some point whether they're at home themselves or a friend/neighbour does it.

That said, from my limited rental experience if a date isn't suitable for the tenant they're obliged to give the landlord/agency a couple of alternative dates. The OP has done this so to me it's up to the landlord/agency to accept the proposed date won't work and come to an agreement with the tenant on which alternate date they will be coming to do the heating work from the choices given.
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Old 01.11.2017, 16:01
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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@eng_ch and Occasiona Canadian, you seem very kind and sweet to take this thread seriously. I did that too in a few occasions lol. But....after seeing so much on EF, I can safely assume that this is a troll.
Who cares if it is a troll or not. You can still answer most of the so called troll questions seriously and in a way that it may help others in similar situation.

Most of the trolling anyway does not come from the supposed troll but from beloved but maybe slightly bored EF members. Be glad I am not a moderator because I would not refrain from Zapping or moving (to preserve them because they are actually funny nevertheless) some of post.
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Old 01.11.2017, 16:03
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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What I seem to get from this is that the OP doesn't appear to want to let the workmen in EVER. And that's simply not on. They're going to have to allow entrance at some point whether they're at home themselves or a friend/neighbour does it.
No, OP offered alternatives. If those is enough or not may be up to a court if neither side gives in.

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The given appointment is the day when I’m going to the hospital for a surgery I’ve been waiting for a year.

I contacted the landlord and offered them ten days when they can come in anytime, I would be at home.
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Old 01.11.2017, 16:05
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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What I seem to get from this is that the OP doesn't appear to want to let the workmen in EVER.
No, re-read posts #1 & #2

#2 states #1 had a typo - it should have read she didn't want anyone in when she was NOT home. #1 states she offered 10 (TEN) alternative dates that would be possible. In any case, it's not like she's just being wilfully difficult about dates - she's supposed to be in hospital for 2 important operations!

ETA: cross-posted
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  #93  
Old 01.11.2017, 16:21
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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Because the security is pinpoint subjective. It's entirely possible to have buttoned-up NDAs about stuff that's so mundane to anyone outside of the system that nobody outside gets it.

For example, lets say that OP is a designer doing, lets say, an ultra-high end homewares brand. Fashion trendsetting type of stuff. That's high confidentiality, because of the possiblity of knockoffs if it leaks. Will anyone stage a break in to see the newest sofa design? Hardly.

It's obvious she's concerned about photos, which could go into the wild. That's what made me think of this industry - it's not sensitive if just seen, but is very sensitive if transmissible.

EDIT: Think of the lengths car manufacturers go to to keep the styling details of their new models secret. Nobody wants their thunder stolen and IP knocked off before launch.
Again, thanks for sincerity and civility. I still have a hard time believing that posting on an open (and rough, as eng_ch mentioned, hence a place with a slight scandal potential and high traffic) with all the noise she got (and anticipated, I am sure, I get your points too, eng_ch, if she anticipated scenarios this must have occured, too) is better than asking a trustworthy buddy in similar biz how they treat house repaires and maintenance folks. If somebody is that talented to provide those services with high security, shouldn't it be done somewhere else than a regular living space? Unless OP wants to tell us how precious her world is...I don't mean it in a mean way, seriously. Ops are important, somebody coming in the house is necessary - it is a dilema one won't sort with stubborness. Something has to give in.
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  #94  
Old 01.11.2017, 16:34
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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Again, thanks for sincerity and civility. I still have a hard time believing that posting on an open (and rough, as eng_ch mentioned, hence a place with a slight scandal potential and high traffic) with all the noise she got (and anticipated, I am sure, I get your points too, eng_ch, if she anticipated scenarios this must have occured, too) is better than asking a trustworthy buddy in similar biz how they treat house repaires and maintenance folks.
... assumes she has anyone else to ask.

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If somebody is that talented to provide those services with high security, shouldn't it be done somewhere else than a regular living space?
You don't have to be Einstein for these things to apply. They are often blanket NDAs applied to all staff, on-site and off-site - and that's often where the problems arise, because they don't take account of different prevailing circumstances.

And, just one scenario - what if it's long-term clients she's kept after moving to CH? Where is she supposed to work? ImpactHub and the like are rather less secure than one's home, and you can't assume the employer or client has suitably secure premises in CH.

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Ops are important, somebody coming in the house is necessary - it is a dilema one won't sort with stubborness. Something has to give in.
Indeed. But not necessarily the OP if she has no room for manoeuvre. Who's to say one of the other tenants isn't being stubborn about dates for less well-founded reasons? We don't know. As I said in my first post, a *reasonable* landlord would usually do their best to find a solution which is, after all, also in the landlord's interests. *If* the situation has been explained clearly and calmly to them.
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Old 01.11.2017, 16:37
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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She's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.
EF in a nutshell!
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Old 01.11.2017, 16:41
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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... assumes she has anyone else to ask.



You don't have to be Einstein for these things to apply. They are often blanket NDAs applied to all staff, on-site and off-site - and that's often where the problems arise.

And, just one scenario - what if it's long-term clients she's kept after moving to CH? Where is she supposed to work? ImpactHub and the like are rather less secure than one's home, and you can't assume the employer or client has suitably secure premises in CH.



Indeed. But not necessarily the OP if she has no room for manoeuvre. Who's to say one of the other tenants isn't being stubborn about dates for less well-founded reasons? We don't know. As I said in my first post, a *reasonable* landlord would usually do their best to find a solution which is, after all, also in the landlord's interests. *If* the situation has been explained clearly and calmly to them.
I think one way to have the landlord more reasonable is maybe have him by some eery chance read it here. I get the details openly shared here then.

But. But but but. Knowing the success ratio of the needs of 1 tenant against the needs of the rest of the tenants, a doodle probably showed all that the landlord will respond to, rationally speaking. Even tenant association might not help. I wonder. Off-site security restrictions should have zero impact on other tenants.
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Old 01.11.2017, 16:41
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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Again, thanks for sincerity and civility. I still have a hard time believing that posting on an open (and rough, as eng_ch mentioned, hence a place with a slight scandal potential and high traffic) with all the noise she got (and anticipated, I am sure, I get your points too, eng_ch, if she anticipated scenarios this must have occured, too) is better than asking a trustworthy buddy in similar biz how they treat house repaires and maintenance folks. If somebody is that talented to provide those services with high security, shouldn't it be done somewhere else than a regular living space? Unless OP wants to tell us how precious her world is...I don't mean it in a mean way, seriously. Ops are important, somebody coming in the house is necessary - it is a dilema one won't sort with stubborness. Something has to give in.
As far as I concern this is an anonymous forum and nobody know who she or even he is. The request of OP was clear:
-What are may obligations?
-Did I fulfill my obligations set by the law?
-What will happen if I refuse entry during my absence?
-Is there a chance the landlord my still try to enter my home?
-Would it be legal if they enter my home without my consent?
-What are my rights if they enter my home without my consent in case there is no emergency?

The answers to the above questions:
-To provide access in a way which is amicable to both parties. This could mean that a third party provides access in case tenant is absent.
- Maybe. Maybe not.
- It could come to a court case, which will be interesting. Additionally you may have to pay damages because work ordered could not be done.
- Maybe. We do not know if the landlord is willing to commit a crime.
- Yes, in case of an emergency where live or property is in immediate danger and harm cannot be prevented in any other way. No, in case there is no emergency.
- It would be trespassing which is punishable by criminal law. In case you suffer a financial loss you may be entitled to compensation of said loss. The loss must be enumerated and accounted for you cannot just pull numbers from the air or claim punitive damages.
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Old 01.11.2017, 17:21
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

Why can't see just lock the stuff in a metal filing cabinet?

She's hardly going to get the blame from her employers if she comes back from hospital and finds the cabinet forced open and the papers gone.

How is that different from a break-in? Unless she never, ever goes outside which again suggests mental illness.
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Old 01.11.2017, 17:26
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

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Who cares if it is a troll or not. You can still answer most of the so called troll questions seriously and in a way that it may help others in similar situation.

Most of the trolling anyway does not come from the supposed troll but from beloved but maybe slightly bored EF members. Be glad I am not a moderator because I would not refrain from Zapping or moving (to preserve them because they are actually funny nevertheless) some of post.
Indeed, just look at your post.

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Does anyone know where I can get a disc tumbler lock door in Switzerland?
Additionaly where can I get a safe which has at least class 6 rating and fire protection up to 120 minutes for magnetic tapes etc. or must I buy a big safe and have inside it my data safe?
On a more serious tone, fine - some genuine advice on a problem that might be a genuine problem if not for OP than who knows who else, never hurt anyone.
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Old 01.11.2017, 17:41
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Re: Right to refuse "break-in"

Well, if the OP is this Amanda Portman,
https://www.fnac.com/ia4140536/Amanda-Portman
then maybe her walls are covered in erotica and I can understand why she doesn't want anyone in there taking photos. Especially if the manuscript pages are illustrated.

That then begs the question of why she would use her real name on EF.
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