Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 14.02.2018, 19:33
ivank's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: ZH
Posts: 2,100
Groaned at 73 Times in 62 Posts
Thanked 1,812 Times in 1,016 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
Nope, an application is an invitation to make an offer.
Nope, it's also a sort of a contract too

A "pre-contract" to be more specific is what lawyers would call it
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 14.02.2018, 22:59
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 5,534
Groaned at 62 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 5,727 Times in 3,083 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
Nope, it's also a sort of a contract too

A "pre-contract" to be more specific is what lawyers would call it
An application for a flat is definitely not a precontract.
It's - as the word says - an application, giving information and allowing them to "check me out".
They can then offer the flat - still no precontract - and I can say I want it or not.

Applying for a flat here is like applying for a job: You show interest in what's offered, give some information about yourself and then negotiations do or do not start.

As to OP's subject: I truly believe (but did not go and check) that fees for drawing up the contract etc. are not legal here. The work needed to be done to rent out a flat must be payed by the owner (is usually in the fee the owner pays the administrator company .... but however, that is none of your concern).
Seriously, I would not pay that part! They try all kinds of nonsense, some even try to charge a fee when you refuse a flat (that's a real good one )

The name tags is - at least in Switzerland - a common thing. They want things to look nice, proper and uniform, so they get it done for you and make you pay for it.
I didn't pay anything here. But they only made the one on the postbox (obviously because they wanted it to look neat ), they didn't bother about the doorbell-one though.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 14.02.2018, 23:07
speakeron's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 1,138
Groaned at 36 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 1,005 Times in 515 Posts
speakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond reputespeakeron has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Think of it as a tip. Although, admittedly, it's quite a generous one.

I would normally just round up to the next factor of 5 or 10 (unless the waiter had an insanely cool backstory or we'd sunk enough wine to fill the average rooftop pool).
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 14.02.2018, 23:31
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 2,186
Groaned at 34 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 2,428 Times in 1,143 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
As to OP's subject: I truly believe (but did not go and check) that fees for drawing up the contract etc. are not legal here.
They didn't say it was for drawing up contracts, they said it was for administration.

Many companies charge this sort of thing for new agreements - phone, cable, banks, leasing to name a few - they're unlikely to all be charging illegal fees.

From other threads the charge if you are rejected is illegal, since they are not actually providing anything, but this isn't the same.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 14.02.2018, 23:48
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 5,534
Groaned at 62 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 5,727 Times in 3,083 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
They didn't say it was for drawing up contracts, they said it was for administration.

Many companies charge this sort of thing for new agreements - phone, cable, banks, leasing to name a few - they're unlikely to all be charging illegal fees.

From other threads the charge if you are rejected is illegal, since they are not actually providing anything, but this isn't the same.
Even if it's for what you mentioned - in my opinion even weirder - , I say it's illegal to charge anything extra (apart from the name tags, which they deliver and are specific to the tenant) = I disagree. We will have to agree on that then
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 15.02.2018, 00:27
ivank's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: ZH
Posts: 2,100
Groaned at 73 Times in 62 Posts
Thanked 1,812 Times in 1,016 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
I say it's illegal to charge anything extra
The big question is why?

Maybe one promising way you could use to argue is claim it's a Koppelungsgeschäft, if you stretch the definition hard enough, and see how they react to that
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 15.02.2018, 01:56
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 5,153
Groaned at 160 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,569 Times in 3,373 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
Nope, it's also a sort of a contract too

A "pre-contract" to be more specific is what lawyers would call it
So do tell, what are the contract conditions the candidate signs for?

@curley & newtoswitz
I don't think it's illegal (i.e. punishable by a sentence within a given range), rather it's anlawful (thus not enforcible) in such a case but Ok if accepted by the other party. I think if such a condition is part of the contract that's probably fine, but not if it's based on an application form as that has zero legal significance.

Last edited by Urs Max; 15.02.2018 at 02:09.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 15.02.2018, 13:58
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 5,534
Groaned at 62 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 5,727 Times in 3,083 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
So do tell, what are the contract conditions the candidate signs for?

@curley & newtoswitz
I don't think it's illegal (i.e. punishable by a sentence within a given range), rather it's anlawful (thus not enforcible) in such a case but Ok if accepted by the other party. I think if such a condition is part of the contract that's probably fine, but not if it's based on an application form as that has zero legal significance.
Never said it was punishable. Court would just say not valid. = Landlord pays the court-costs but no fine.
I would call it "unlauter".
I would just not pay it, tell them why I don't pay it and if they want to take it to court ..... let them. But they won't because I'm sure they know what they're doing and it seems enough people fall for it to be worth trying.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank curley for this useful post:
  #29  
Old 15.02.2018, 17:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 5,153
Groaned at 160 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,569 Times in 3,373 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
Never said it was punishable.
But you called it illegal, which amounts to that.
Quote:
View Post
Court would just say not valid. = Landlord pays the court-costs but no fine.
That's why it's unlawful, neither valid nor supported by the law but neither forbiden nor punishable either. I agree with that.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 15.02.2018, 17:20
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 5,534
Groaned at 62 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 5,727 Times in 3,083 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
But you called it illegal, which amounts to that.

That's why it's unlawful, neither valid nor supported by the law but neither forbiden nor punishable either. I agree with that.
Yes, dear, I called it illegal. And it is. (illegal amongst many things: widerrechtlich, regelwidrig, ungültig, gesetzeswidrig, best one: Nicht Rechtens). It's not my fault, these guys don't have a differentiating vocabulary

Anything that is not legal is illegal. Doesn't make it punishable. We had that with the law of tenancy a few days ago. You take your neighbour to court for being too loud, the judge might tell him to stop what ever noisce he's making yet not punish/fine him (apart from the court costs which are causative principle not punishment).

There are lots of things here you can "always try". If you get through with it, lucky devil (wo kein Kläger, kein Richter, remember?) if not, too bad. TIS.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 15.02.2018, 17:32
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Leimbach, Zürich
Posts: 2,183
Groaned at 126 Times in 95 Posts
Thanked 2,063 Times in 1,045 Posts
EdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond reputeEdwinNL has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
Yes, dear, I called it illegal. And it is. (illegal amongst many things: widerrechtlich, regelwidrig, ungültig, gesetzeswidrig, best one: Nicht Rechtens). It's not my fault, these guys don't have a differentiating vocabulary

Anything that is not legal is illegal. Doesn't make it punishable. We had that with the law of tenancy a few days ago. You take your neighbour to court for being too loud, the judge might tell him to stop what ever noisce he's making yet not punish/fine him (apart from the court costs which are causative principle not punishment).

There are lots of things here you can "always try". If you get through with it, lucky devil (wo kein Kläger, kein Richter, remember?) if not, too bad. TIS.
Only as for sound and neighbourhood noises there are clear laws which prohibit such and allow to take action.

The act of asking for money to which one is not entitled to on itself is not illegal.

If I look in the dictionary's (and not the translation books) I see nowhere that illegal is to be used in this situation.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 15.02.2018, 18:17
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Genève
Posts: 66
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts
CBGeneve has no particular reputation at present
Re: Apartment entry fee

Perhaps this is another thing where there are regional differences?

When we moved to Geneva 2 years ago, many of the regies we spoke to charged a fee for drawing up a contract. Basically, if you said you were interested in their apartment and they chose you as the lucky tenant, they would charge a fee of CHF 125, CHF 150, CHF 175 for sending the contract - payable even if you did not sign it in the end. So it could turn out to be expensive to just apply for an apartment you liked since you could end up with say 3 offers and liable to pay the fee for all although you could only sign for 1 apartment obviously.

We also paid for nametags which I did not find particularly strange since that is normal where I come from too. Prices are always outrageous for that. In our Geneva case they even sent us two pairs of name tags and charged us twice. We got away with only paying once though However, it was actually not the regie that we had to pay for the tags.

When I rented an apartment in Aargau, there were no such fees for anything. Just a 2 month deposit for rent and that's it.

So regional differences and perhaps also a question of supply and demand? I don't know.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 15.02.2018, 18:51
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 5,534
Groaned at 62 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 5,727 Times in 3,083 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
Perhaps this is another thing where there are regional differences?

When we moved to Geneva 2 years ago, many of the regies we spoke to charged a fee for drawing up a contract. Basically, if you said you were interested in their apartment and they chose you as the lucky tenant, they would charge a fee of CHF 125, CHF 150, CHF 175 for sending the contract - payable even if you did not sign it in the end. So it could turn out to be expensive to just apply for an apartment you liked since you could end up with say 3 offers and liable to pay the fee for all although you could only sign for 1 apartment obviously.

We also paid for nametags which I did not find particularly strange since that is normal where I come from too. Prices are always outrageous for that. In our Geneva case they even sent us two pairs of name tags and charged us twice. We got away with only paying once though However, it was actually not the regie that we had to pay for the tags.

When I rented an apartment in Aargau, there were no such fees for anything. Just a 2 month deposit for rent and that's it.

So regional differences and perhaps also a question of supply and demand? I don't know.
I doubt it (cantonal). The net is full of that (fee when not accepting contract) - sorry if I don't spend too much time googling for it. This is in German and there is even a court-decision (where they also mention "unlauter" as I did earlier)=precedent.

As to fees for contract etc: It really is ridiculous.
The contract is the basis for a deal - one can always offer to draw it up (and put the charges on them .... nope because as I said it's ridiculous). Not to mention that there are standard-rental-contracts one can pull from the internet.

But feel free to be charged for your work-contract in future and while you're at it for the time they needed to interview you/negotiate with you. (not meaning you whom I quoted specifically )

Because as long as you pay, nobody interferes.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank curley for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 16.02.2018, 10:14
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Genève
Posts: 66
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts
CBGeneve has no particular reputation at present
Re: Apartment entry fee

I agree it is rediculous!

Regarding the legal side of it, I really do not understand if this is illegal. All the regies in Geneva - the big ones at least - were pretty open about this. It was clearly stated on the application form that you had to sign and hand in that you incurred a fee regardless of whether you signed the contract sent to you or not.

Talking about stupid fees, we also have a CHF 250 fee for cancelling our rental contract "early". We never discussed length with them and they just put 5 years in. Not a fee I really can see justified in either way shape or form.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 16.02.2018, 13:04
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 5,534
Groaned at 62 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 5,727 Times in 3,083 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
I agree it is rediculous!

Regarding the legal side of it, I really do not understand if this is illegal. All the regies in Geneva - the big ones at least - were pretty open about this. It was clearly stated on the application form that you had to sign and hand in that you incurred a fee regardless of whether you signed the contract sent to you or not.

Talking about stupid fees, we also have a CHF 250 fee for cancelling our rental contract "early". We never discussed length with them and they just put 5 years in. Not a fee I really can see justified in either way shape or form.
So you have a five-year-rental contract. This can be done of course but is mostly for renting shops and offices, lease contract for restaurants.

However, it works both ways - gonna have a big, loud party soon?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 16.02.2018, 13:20
ivank's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: ZH
Posts: 2,100
Groaned at 73 Times in 62 Posts
Thanked 1,812 Times in 1,016 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
So do tell, what are the contract conditions the candidate signs for?
Slap a few clauses together on a piece of paper and you've yourself got a contract, what's so hard to understand about this?

In this case you apparently agreed to pay 200 Fr for admin expenses (like drawing up a rental contract, postage, travelling to handover meeting, etc) and 70 Fr for the nameplates.

As I already pointed out, some establishments, e.g. garages sometimes charge you for a quote. Maybe it'd take a couple hours for a mechanic to look at your fricking car and figure out what's wrong with and how much it'd cost to fix, and he'd like to get compensated for his time. Would you also tell him in this case to f**k off because no contract?

Quote:
View Post
Talking about stupid fees, we also have a CHF 250 fee for cancelling our rental contract "early".
This one's easily illegal (in the sense void & unenforceable, not that someone's going to jail over it). Here's the law you need to quote him - https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...ndex.html#a267
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ivank for this useful post:
  #37  
Old 16.02.2018, 13:52
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Genève
Posts: 66
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts
CBGeneve has no particular reputation at present
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
So you have a five-year-rental contract. This can be done of course but is mostly for renting shops and offices, lease contract for restaurants.
Is there a standard for the length? I was happy with 5 years. Where I came from it is 2 years that is the norm for private renting and I hate moving

Quote:
View Post
However, it works both ways - gonna have a big, loud party soon?
In the clause it actually says that it is the lessee that incurs the fee; so if the regie cancel the contract early I am also liable to pay I have no plans for either moving or getting kicked out so I take this pretty easy - and in particular with this:

Quote:
View Post
This one's easily illegal (in the sense void & unenforceable, not that someone's going to jail over it). Here's the law you need to quote him - https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...ndex.html#a267
Well, it quite clearly is!
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 16.02.2018, 14:02
ivank's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: ZH
Posts: 2,100
Groaned at 73 Times in 62 Posts
Thanked 1,812 Times in 1,016 Posts
ivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond reputeivank has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
Is there a standard for the length?
No minimum duration or 1 year minimum I think are pretty common in Zurich, with ordinary cancellation possible a couple of times a year on a 3 month notice
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 16.02.2018, 14:07
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 5,534
Groaned at 62 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 5,727 Times in 3,083 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
Is there a standard for the length? I was happy with 5 years. Where I came from it is 2 years that is the norm for private renting and I hate moving
I never had that in any of my rental contracts.
Quote:
View Post
In the clause it actually says that it is the lessee that incurs the fee; so if the regie cancel the contract early I am also liable to pay I have no plans for either moving or getting kicked out so I take this pretty easy - .....
No Sir. Contracts work both ways or are not legit.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 16.02.2018, 14:27
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 7,772
Groaned at 64 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 11,204 Times in 5,090 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Apartment entry fee

Quote:
View Post
Regarding the legal side of it, I really do not understand if this is illegal. All the regies in Geneva - the big ones at least - were pretty open about this. It was clearly stated on the application form that you had to sign and hand in that you incurred a fee regardless of whether you signed the contract sent to you or not.
Most likley never ever anyone challenged it as the rental situation in Geneva is allready dire. On the other hand this would also indicate that such a charge might not be enforcable as it exploits the weaker position of the prospective tenannts.

Quote:
View Post
Is there a standard for the length? I was happy with 5 years. Where I came from it is 2 years that is the norm for private renting and I hate moving
In Kanton of Zurich, I would even says most of the German speaking part, the standard duration is infinite/open ended.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Agency Fee for Apartment Lease Signing Enohzee Housing in general 2 19.05.2015 11:41
[Clubs] no entry fee - Basel milsam Entertainment & dining 17 17.11.2014 11:54
Additional fee for entry visa accredition zizi Permits/visas/government 2 21.07.2013 20:22
500chf Apartment cancellation fee (Pre construction)? stef3232 Housing in general 41 08.06.2013 22:55
Visa Procedure Multiple Entry Visa/ Single Entry/ Double Entry? Nasrin Madrid-Abraham Permits/visas/government 1 24.01.2013 11:11


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0