Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11.10.2018, 11:01
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Aarau
Posts: 60
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
davdenic has no particular reputation at present
Buying house, hidden costs?

Hi
I'm thinking about buying a house, but have no experience here in CH and a bit worried about possible "hidden costs" beside the mortgage.
For example, I was thinking of:
- legal fees (notary fees?)
- taxes, does it change something? should I have to expect higher taxes as house owner?
- nebenkosten now are included in the rent, then I have for sure to pay by my own, but I guess are more or less the same. Maybe higher for a single house, since now I'm in a flat.

anything else?

thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11.10.2018, 12:02
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SZ
Posts: 9,263
Groaned at 22 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 20,489 Times in 6,565 Posts
meloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

Notary and related costs around the contract and sale, and the split between buyer and seller, will vary by canton. Call the Notäriat in your Gemeinde or Bezirk responsible for handling the sale and ask for a run down of costs. These should be readily available.

Be aware that although the capital gains tax on the property is paid by the sellers, if the sellers skip out without paying a lien can be placed on the property - meaning the buyer could find him or herself stuck with that liability. Talk to the agent and your mortgage broker about how to protect yourself here.

---

A reservation deposit might be required, these vary. My current home, and all others I have looked at in SZ, required 10% to reserve, which can be easy 6 figures. Other posts on EF speak of reservation cost of 10, 20K. The sales agent will tell you what is expected. Make sure you have that money liquid when you make an offer.

---

Obviously mortgage rates and fees will vary. Shop around.

---

One tax change will be Eigenmietwert; your property will be assessed for a theoretical own rental value and that figure will be added to your income and taxed accordingly.

You will likely have additional deductions available. Many find that the deductions pretty much offset tax on Eigenmietwert, YMMV.

---

Note: IMO Eigenmietwert is a fairer approach than the fixed property tax levied back home, as it is a function of income. Those with lower incomes - young folks starting out, older folks on fixed pensions - essentially pay less than those in peak earning brackets.

Having watched young families unable to buy an otherwise affordable property due to fixed property taxes and older folks forced to sell because taxes on a paid-off home were higher than their pension income, I much prefer the system we have here.

Be aware, though, that Eigenmietwert is a frequent political football and might some day be done away with, along with the tax deductions that come with property ownership. You can bet the community/canton will not let go of that revenue stream, Eigenmietwert's replacement might well be something less equitable - so plan accordingly. (So if it comes up for referendum: Homeowners, before voting out Eigenmietwert, be careful what you wish for...)

You should ask the current owners what the Eigenmietwert assessment is, but be aware that a recent sale will likely trigger a re-assessment, likely higher.

---

Whether it is tax prudent to take on a higher load of mortgage debt (vs deductions) will vary with your individual financial situation. Speak to a qualified tax professional before deciding on how you structure your mortgage.

--

Also, if you are currently on QS, property ownership usually tiggers a switch to normal taxation. In addition to changes due to property ownership you may see significant tax rate change from QS if you are in a low or high tax Gemeinde.

---

Ask the current owner for a break out of annual costs for heating, electric, water, garbage, sewage, cantonally required controls such as annual furnace and chimney inspections, etc.

Your mortgage advisor can suggest what sort of maintenance savings you should target for repairs, etc. Then double that number. ;-)

Case in point: Some years ago the furnace emmissions level allowed were cut, meaning that I, along with most folks I know who owned homes of the same vintage, suddenly were required to replace furnaces or boilers that were otherwise working perfectly well. Our replacement came to 25K. The canton allowed a 5 year Frist for replacements, so one had time to save... but you should always have a healthy bit o' liquidity at hand for the unexpected. Given Swiss prices, think very healthy.

If the home is in need of renovation, get a preliminary quote (for which you likely will have to pay) for the work you envision having done, then triple that figure.

---

You will need homeowners insurance. It's not a lot, maybe a 500-1K or so per year IIRC. Obviously tied to the value of the building. Get quotes from several providers. Ask your current contents or private liability provider if there are any bundling deals to be had.

---

If there is any aspect of shared ownership - such as a Quartier (including garage, private street, shared snow or gardening maintenance contracts, fund for future improvements, etc.) find out what the associated costs are. The owner can show you historical costs. Find out if any increases are expected in the next year. If there is a shared ownership aspect there is likely an annual owners meeting, ask for minutes from the previous few years.

---

Every time you walk into Hornbach or B/H you will walk out at least CHF 100 poorer. ;-) If you don't already have a garage full of power tools, raise that figure an order of magniude. There is always something needing fixed, changed, fiddled with. But DIY is half the fun - welcome to home ownership!

---

tl;dr:

Switzerland is not a country where one wants to find one's self 'house poor'. Make sure you have healthy savings beyond the cost of purchase.

Last edited by meloncollie; 11.10.2018 at 12:34.
Reply With Quote
The following 16 users would like to thank meloncollie for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 11.10.2018, 15:32
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 8,992
Groaned at 72 Times in 63 Posts
Thanked 13,320 Times in 5,962 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

Quote:
View Post
Be aware, though, that Eigenmietwert is a frequent political football and might some day be done away with, along with the tax deductions that come with property ownership. You can bet the community/canton will not let go of that revenue stream, Eigenmietwert's replacement might well be something less equitable - so plan accordingly. (So if it comes up for referendum: Homeowners, before voting out Eigenmietwert, be careful what you wish for...)
Didn't you hear the whistle for the kickoff of the next round?

The council of states economic affairs and taxation committee (WAK-S) is preparing a proposal how to get rid of the Eigenmietwert. With it maintenance deductions would no longer be possible and there will be a cap on interest deductions.
https://www.parlament.ch/press-relea...018-08-21.aspx
https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/der-ei...uss-ld.1413354
https://www.tdg.ch/suisse/Vers-la-su...story/13524799
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 11.10.2018, 15:56
krlock3's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,716
Groaned at 47 Times in 33 Posts
Thanked 1,750 Times in 890 Posts
krlock3 has a reputation beyond reputekrlock3 has a reputation beyond reputekrlock3 has a reputation beyond reputekrlock3 has a reputation beyond reputekrlock3 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

In addition to Meloncollies fantastic and very informative post, I would just add that when a bank considers whether to give you a mortgage, they will "stress test" you under the approximate condition that you can comfortably afford a mortgage (by which they normally mean a third of your salary is available) under a hypothetical 5% interest rate.

Their argument simply being, if interest rates rise to about that level, can you still afford it. If not, but you have savings, you can put down a greater deposit and thus take a lesser mortgage.

Not a hidden cost per se, but something to be aware of.
__________________
krlock3.

Last edited by krlock3; 11.10.2018 at 16:17.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank krlock3 for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 11.10.2018, 16:54
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SZ
Posts: 9,263
Groaned at 22 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 20,489 Times in 6,565 Posts
meloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

Quote:
View Post
Didn't you hear the whistle for the kickoff of the next round?

The council of states economic affairs and taxation committee (WAK-S) is preparing a proposal how to get rid of the Eigenmietwert. With it maintenance deductions would no longer be possible and there will be a cap on interest deductions.
Oops, I missed that one - thanks for that!

Interesting times ahead in the property market.

Will be watching carefully from now on.


Davdenic, with proposed changes in mind the need to seek professional tax advice wrt your individual situation is even more pertinent.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank meloncollie for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 11.10.2018, 20:04
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,092
Groaned at 319 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 9,282 Times in 3,283 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

It is unclear where the OP is from, but if the UK, you will find buying cost are lower than in the UK.

If it‘s a new build, there may be hidden costs in the form of the local council placing „border stones“ to mark the edge of the property. Also there may be costs for connecting up water or drains. First new-build these were all included, second new build they were extra.

In all compared to the UK buying a house in Switzerland is actually cheaper!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank AbFab for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 11.10.2018, 20:39
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 314
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 356 Times in 140 Posts
eairicbloodaxe has a reputation beyond reputeeairicbloodaxe has a reputation beyond reputeeairicbloodaxe has a reputation beyond reputeeairicbloodaxe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

In all compared to the UK buying a house in Switzerland is actually cheaper!


Apart from the purchase price itself, surely?



Regards




Ian
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank eairicbloodaxe for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 11.10.2018, 20:55
Mrs. Doolittle's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 5,870
Groaned at 155 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 6,808 Times in 3,222 Posts
Mrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond reputeMrs. Doolittle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

Quote:
View Post
....
- nebenkosten now are included in the rent, then I have for sure to pay by my own, but I guess are more or less the same. Maybe higher for a single house, since now I'm in a flat.

anything else?

thanks
The utility costs for a house can vary greatly. Difficult to compare to an apartment.
Water, sewage, garbage tax-these are billed by the gemeinde
Electricity - if the house needs an inspection you will need to pay for that
Heating system - could be oil or gas. (Heat pump uses electricity)
Chimney sweep

When we sold our previous home we provided potential buyers with an excel spreadsheet showing the running costs of the house. Of course these costs vary by individual usage but at least it gave people an idea of the running costs.

If you use major appliances when the electricity rate is lower (night rates) you will save on electricity consumption.

The bottom line is I know people who are paying more in nebenkosten for an apartment. Some have additional costs such as the hauswart fees. If you own your house you need to maintain it. Many of these costs can deducted from your taxes. For example, descaling the boiler.

In Kanton Aargau there is a basic deduction you can take for repairs and maintenance, but if exceed that you need to keep all invoices and provide a list on your tax return in order to deduct these.

My advice before you buy is to do the reasearch to avoid any unwelcome surprises.

Good luck!
__________________

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Mrs. Doolittle for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 11.10.2018, 21:35
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Aarau
Posts: 60
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
davdenic has no particular reputation at present
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

Thanks
A lot of useful information
Thanks again :-)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11.10.2018, 22:00
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,092
Groaned at 319 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 9,282 Times in 3,283 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

Quote:
View Post
In all compared to the UK buying a house in Switzerland is actually cheaper!

Apart from the purchase price itself, surely?

Rewards

Ian
Clearly away from London property prices are lower than here, but with mortgages at under 1% in Switzerland ones buying power is greater...
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 16.10.2018, 17:35
omtatsat's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Timbuktoo/Zürich
Posts: 6,554
Groaned at 1,014 Times in 558 Posts
Thanked 2,588 Times in 1,691 Posts
omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat omtatsat
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

The cost of buying ones own hause has doubled in Zurich since 2007!

https://www.bluewin.ch/de/news/schwe...07-160076.html

In German but there are some tables of the prices. Crazy.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank omtatsat for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 17.10.2018, 10:32
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 65
Groaned at 13 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 50 Times in 26 Posts
evaluna has no particular reputation at present
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

For Zürich city, try:

https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/prd/de/...denpreise.html

Lots of fun. It gives average* prices per square meter of either land or built properties. The price/m2 takes into consideration "Wohnflache" i.e. living space or m2 built. So all bedroooms, corridors, bathrooms etc. etc. count.

*Average = based on past purchase prices as recorded by the Notariat
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank evaluna for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 17.10.2018, 10:41
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 8,992
Groaned at 72 Times in 63 Posts
Thanked 13,320 Times in 5,962 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

Quote:
View Post
Lets say I have an house of 100 sqm, including corridors and stairs, and a garden. Only liveable space so just the rooms and not the corridors are taken into account?
It is based on advertised prices and sqm. https://www.comparis.ch/comparis/pre...veraenderungen

Most likely a mix of Hauptnutzfläche and Nutzfläche accroding SIA 416, one of the USPI area definition, Net living space according federal definition, and what ever advertiser thinks is the appropriate area like the Wohnfläche Implenia uses,.

SIA 416:
http://www.svkg.ch/Flachen_und_Volum...WalterGraf.pdf
Federal definition:
https://www.wbs.admin.ch/de/anwendun...ttowohnflaeche
Example of an Implenia definition:
http://www.sueundtil.ch/files/downlo...definition.pdf
USPI definitions:
https://www.immo-consultant.ch/infor...l-des-surfaces
An other document with even more area definitions:
http://www.bvr.ch/data/downloads/file_1_813.pdf
__________________
PLAYER 1 ENTER YOUR NAME:_

Last edited by aSwissInTheUS; 18.10.2018 at 11:46.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 17.10.2018, 11:17
krlock3's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,716
Groaned at 47 Times in 33 Posts
Thanked 1,750 Times in 890 Posts
krlock3 has a reputation beyond reputekrlock3 has a reputation beyond reputekrlock3 has a reputation beyond reputekrlock3 has a reputation beyond reputekrlock3 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

Thanks

I realised that I had asked this question elsewhere about a year ago so I deleted my question and added to that original thread, but thanks for the answers evaluna and swiss in the us.

The evaluna link suggests values on a particular address. The results are not that credible. It would suggest that a house that I know sold in 2012 for 1m+ would be valued at just 600k. It also tends to suggest that prices tripled in the 10 year period linked to above, which again does not sound right.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank krlock3 for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 17.10.2018, 11:50
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 8,992
Groaned at 72 Times in 63 Posts
Thanked 13,320 Times in 5,962 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

Quote:
View Post
The evaluna link suggests values on a particular address. The results are not that credible. It would suggest that a house that I know sold in 2012 for 1m+ would be valued at just 600k. It also tends to suggest that prices tripled in the 10 year period linked to above, which again does not sound right.
The prices from the Zürich City are not the price of a single house but the sales in the surrounding area. This can be misleading as not all hoses in an area have the same value. Also if an old building gets sold for a low price, torn down and replaced by a new built with high priced apartments it will skew the statistics.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 17.10.2018, 17:01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Lugano
Posts: 321
Groaned at 9 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 312 Times in 156 Posts
LuganoPirate has earned the respect of manyLuganoPirate has earned the respect of manyLuganoPirate has earned the respect of many
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

As the buyer you have the right to choose your own legal studio. Never, ever, pay the reservation deposit to the sales agent or developer, but only to your own lawyer, who will draw up the contract.

Equally, choose your own lawyer, and do not be pushed into accepting the one used by the agent or developer.

As concerns any capital gain on the property, your lawyer will first ascertain from the tax office approximately what the seller's liability is. If this is more than the net proceeds after repaying the bank (it can happen) he will first want either a guarantee or a cash deposit to cover it, as it is your liability if unpaid.

Your and the banks money will be with your lawyer on the date of transfer when both parties have to sign the purchase agreement.

From this he will repay the bank, the taxes, the sales agent, deduct his own fees and pay the balance to the seller. As it can take a month to calculate the exact amount of tax, he will usually keep on his account the calculated amount + 10% and when he has the exact figure and it has been paid, refund any difference to the seller.

Despite the extra tax you may have to pay, buying still works out cheaper than renting, plus you have an asset which will increase in value over time. Any costs you may have for water etc, will anyway be included in your rent so that should not make any difference.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 17.10.2018, 17:20
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 8,992
Groaned at 72 Times in 63 Posts
Thanked 13,320 Times in 5,962 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

Quote:
View Post
As the buyer you have the right to choose your own legal studio. Never, ever, pay the reservation deposit to the sales agent or developer, but only to your own lawyer, who will draw up the contract.

Equally, choose your own lawyer, and do not be pushed into accepting the one used by the agent or developer.
Sure both parties have their own lawyer. Anything else would be totally stupid. Or do you mean notary? Because I highly doubt the selling party is happy that the deposit is not either in their own bank account, with their own lawyer, or a mutually trusted third party.

Most important to know that a pre-contract has nearly zero legal weight and neither side could enforce the sale based on a pre-contract which was not notarized by a public notary.

How freely a notary can be chosen will depend on the canton where the real estate is located. For example in canton Zurich a notary is just a notary and employed by the canton. The notary at place of the real states land register is responsible for notarizing the sales contract.

https://www.beobachter.ch/wohnen/eig...ins-haus-steht
__________________
PLAYER 1 ENTER YOUR NAME:_
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 17.10.2018, 19:40
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,092
Groaned at 319 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 9,282 Times in 3,283 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

I have bought twice and sold once in Switzerland. The only lawyer involved was the local Notoriat, which buyer and seller used together, and the Grundbuchamt, when land was bought separately.

Deposits were paid to me as seller and to the developer when buying - that is what was in the contract...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank AbFab for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 17.10.2018, 20:00
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 21,782
Groaned at 504 Times in 381 Posts
Thanked 24,685 Times in 11,248 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

Quote:
View Post
In all compared to the UK buying a house in Switzerland is actually cheaper!


Apart from the purchase price itself, surely?
It depends very much where you buy - in UK or in CH
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 17.10.2018, 20:25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 314
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 356 Times in 140 Posts
eairicbloodaxe has a reputation beyond reputeeairicbloodaxe has a reputation beyond reputeeairicbloodaxe has a reputation beyond reputeeairicbloodaxe has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Buying house, hidden costs?

As Odile says... yes, it does always depend.



(Would LOVE to know where those good priced properties are to buy in CH!)


OP - For recent buying cost examples in UK, I know a property company that has just bought a 2 bed house, ready to rent, for 107k. And a 3 bed for 113K. Both in a major city suburb. Walking distance to commuter station. (Although admittedly, that's not much of a benefit in the UK).



Total Fees on each (at 3% stamp duty) are just over 4k a piece. Mortgage fee would be probably 500 - 1500 more (but you can roll into the loan if you wish).



Regards




Ian
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
When buying a house, are house contents included Rory Housing in general 8 21.11.2016 11:34
Buying a house - can we borrow more than the house price? Iper Housing in general 14 03.11.2015 08:25
Buying costs now76 Housing in general 10 21.07.2011 16:15
Rip off gym, hidden costs. Sutter Complaints corner 72 10.05.2009 21:05
Buying a garage - costs involved? smackerjack Transportation/driving 0 08.02.2008 17:10


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0